Prenups

[slim 1,525]

I like sunshine and puppy dogs..... and also have nothing to lose if I get divorced. Does that mean we got married for all the right reasons?

We got married for a green card, not for the prospect of a 50/50 split-up of nothing. Truth be told, I would never, ever, ever get married if my wife could live with me without being married. To me, the very institution of marriage is not in tune with today's society. Especially for the men!!!

On the religious side, I'm 100% for marriage and that's where I think we need the separation of church and state. Or at least the separation of property after separation of married people.

In the mean time, I'll just shut up and take my tax break.

[Nancy2015 2]

We got married for a green card, not for the prospect of a 50/50 split-up of nothing. Truth be told, I would never, ever, ever get married if my wife could live with me without being married.

Same here. If we could be together without being married, the marriage wouldn't have happened.

[RosemarieL 0]

Prenuptial agreements go against everything marriage stands for. If you worry so much about what might happen, stay single and unattached. Then what's yours will always be yours. Marriage is about two lives joining in EVERY way without exclusion.

I agree with Kazan and I have been through a divorce this year. I have assets but will not be considering a prenup. It would feel to me as though I am setting up my marriage to fail.

[Satellite 1]

I agree with Kazan and I have been through a divorce this year. I have assets but will not be considering a prenup. It would feel to me as though I am setting up my marriage to fail.

Aren't prenups just like insurance, at least in terms of reducing attorneys fees? Do you think I am setting myself up to die if I buy life insurance? Or getting sick if I buy health insurance? Or getting into a major wreck if I buy more than state minumum in terms of auto insurance?

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Yes, I HAVE been through a divorce. I didn't have a pre-nuptial then and I wouldn't now. It is not ethical in my mind. If either party feels they would be on the street, homeless, friendless, and so forth, if they were to separate, they have no business being together. Marriage should stengthen their postion not weaken it.

You post makes me wonder if you have ever gone through a divorce? Marriages that don't have the idea of joining two lives forever are not common yet half the marriages end up in divorce. People who get divorced and have nothing usually can stay best of friends but where there is a lot to loose and situations like a family business a man would be a fool to get married without one. From the woman's standpoint she is giving up more than we do to get married. It is only wise of her to want the protection of knowing she will not find herself on the street with no family, no friends and no job and no money. A good prenup is good for both. A bad prenup is not worth the paper it is written on. Did you ever know any divorce lawyers who were poor, drove an old car and live in a shanty. They are the ones with most to gain if there is no prenup. I will agree if someone is starting out in life and has few assets then a prenup is not needed.

As for the statement of palimony, I said stay single AND unattached if you want your property to always remain your property. If you have no partner (legally recognized or otherwise) there is no worry about sharing or giving anything away.

I disagree. In several states there are common law marriages. If you held yourself out as a couple, guess what, even if you were never married, one of the "spouses" can sue for divorce. Next, in California where common law marriages are not recognized, in a case of Marvin v. Marvin, a court has held that a cohabitating partner can sue in contract for services rendered and restitution.

So this plan won't work out in every case either.

The point I'm trying to drive home is simple. Marriage is serious. It is a covenant between two parties. This sacred bond is made with ones heart and soul, not a stroke of the pen. There is no room for lawyers and contracts in my marriage. All this can be accomplished with love, trust and mutual respect. If you don't have this level of commitment you shouldn't be a couple. Stay single and unattached if you don't like to share.

[Turboguy 6]

My philosopy has always been that we are all different and all have different circumstances. Lots of people feel like you do Jeffrey. There is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people don't have enough assets to worry about as well. My only marriage and divorce was quite equitable as far as settling the property. We did a 50-50 split. She took the assets and I took the loans for them. What could be more fair?

I think we are all different about what we worry about. I have a deathly fear of heights. It is not to the point that I can't function. I can fly and never think about it. I can go to the top of the Empire state building and enjoy the view, but put me on a slanted house roof about two or three stories up and I am a nervous wreck. My fiancee seems to have a deathly fear of poverty and old age and fears she will end up being one of the babuskas you see in the underground stairways holding a tin cup. I think one of the reasons she chose to look for a man from another country is the poor pension system in Russia. Personally I don't see that as making her any less desirable than my fear of heights. We all have our phobias. I can accept hers and not think less of her for it.

Now let's look at my situation. I own a small manufacturing business. It is not a big deal. We make landscape equipment. We have about 20 employee's. My son has worked in the business for 10 years and my daughter for 5 or so. They have both been a part of my life for a long time. Now let me give you a worst (sorta best in some ways) case scenario. Right now my business sells about 3 million a year. Business like mine are usually valued at a percentage of sales or a percentage of profits much more than assets. Suppose I marry and the marriage lasts 5 years. Lets say that in that time the sales increase from 3 million to 10 and we have some products we will be introducing that could make that happen. Let's say the attorneys set the value at one years sales. She would now get 1/2 of the increase or 3.5 million. Add in any increase in other assets and she could be looking at 4-5 million in settlement. The cash would not be that big a deal in itself since I would still have a value of the same or a tad more but there is only one way to raise 4 or 5 million dollars, Sell the business throwing both my kids out of their jobs and their future. No one can predict the future. I am not saying our sales will go to 10 million. Heck we could go belly up in 5 years. Who knows?

Our committment and devotion to each other are no less than yours. We have a great relationship. I totally believe we will be together till one of us reaches our end. Protecting my businss is important to me. Security is important to her. The prenup will make her very secure. The prenup will protect my business. It is a win-win situation. Not having one would be insane.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Turboguy

[Satellite 1]

The point I'm trying to drive home is simple. Marriage is serious. It is a covenant between two parties. This sacred bond is made with ones heart and soul,

I was in complete agreement with you up to this point.

not a stroke of the pen.

Here is where the disagreement begins. I am not sure what state you are from, but most states to my understanding require a marriage license followed by some sort of solemnization in which case both spouses places their signature with a stroke of a pen. Then once married most states under the law consider your marriage to be a civil contract. What you personally consider marriage to be is irrelevant to the state. Here is an example of some laws.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate...action=retrieve

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4510000010.HTM

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/STATUT.../Section011.htm

I could continue down this path to find a similar definition in all 50 states.

There is no room for lawyers and contracts in my marriage.

I agree about the first part, you are allowed to enter a marriage contract without consenting a lawyer, but as you can see above your marriage certificate is a contract you will later send to the USCIS folks. If you didn't have one, you won't be getting a greencard.

All this can be accomplished with love, trust and mutual respect.

Marital life sure, but not the process before it. You will need that pen, plus some money for the license and cermony...see above.

If you don't have this level of commitment you shouldn't be a couple. Stay single and unattached if you don't like to share.

Completely agree. However, no prenup can be written to restrict sharing while marrying. Although no state will interfere if you don't. See McGuire v. McGuire 59 N.W.2d 336 (Neb. 1953) where the court refused to find a cause of action for a married woman suit for lack of support. But that is not the point of this prenup thread. The point of a prenup was to prevent (in a couple's consensual agreement) excessive sharing after divorce if it occurs.

[RosemarieL 0]

I agree with Kazan and I have been through a divorce this year. I have assets but will not be considering a prenup. It would feel to me as though I am setting up my marriage to fail.

Aren't prenups just like insurance, at least in terms of reducing attorneys fees? Do you think I am setting myself up to die if I buy life insurance? Or getting sick if I buy health insurance? Or getting into a major wreck if I buy more than state minumum in terms of auto insurance?

We are all different but for me a prenup would feel almost like a mini divorce in advance.....

With insurance you are usually insuring against impersonal things such as weather disasters and accidents but with a prenup it feels to me as though I would be casting doubt on the validity of my choice..

[L_n_O 3]

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

I don't need to study state marriage law. When I said stroke of a pen, I was NOT including the obvious requirements. Of course, I need a marriage license and a legal document stating we did, indeed, marry. These are givens. I meant, I'm not sitting at any table and bargaining away as if this were a job or business transaction.

Marriage is not business. I don't care if I'm Bill Gates, the bum on the street corner, or exactly who I am, someone in between. When I marry, ALL that is mine is hers and all that is hers is mine. I don't need to protect anything from the one person I am willing to give myself to. Even the sound of that sends chills down my spine. There is no 60/40, 40/60 or 50/50. or any other ratio. It is 100% shared.

I will never agree with prenuptial agreements. I think any man or woman that is presented one should immediately tell their "partner" where to file it. It is how I feel AND my fiancée feels. Life is too short. I plan on spending eternity with my wife and family (not my money, not my job, and not my business) in the afterlife. I don't condemn those that mutually desire one. I don't expect others to share my beliefs. What others do is for them to decide themselves. I am only stating my opinion in an open forum that encourages free thought.

The point I'm trying to drive home is simple. Marriage is serious. It is a covenant between two parties. This sacred bond is made with ones heart and soul,

I was in complete agreement with you up to this point.

not a stroke of the pen.

Here is where the disagreement begins. I am not sure what state you are from, but most states to my understanding require a marriage license followed by some sort of solemnization in which case both spouses places their signature with a stroke of a pen. Then once married most states under the law consider your marriage to be a civil contract. What you personally consider marriage to be is irrelevant to the state. Here is an example of some laws.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate...action=retrieve

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4510000010.HTM

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/STATUT.../Section011.htm

I could continue down this path to find a similar definition in all 50 states.

There is no room for lawyers and contracts in my marriage.

I agree about the first part, you are allowed to enter a marriage contract without consenting a lawyer, but as you can see above your marriage certificate is a contract you will later send to the USCIS folks. If you didn't have one, you won't be getting a greencard.

All this can be accomplished with love, trust and mutual respect.

Marital life sure, but not the process before it. You will need that pen, plus some money for the license and cermony...see above.

If you don't have this level of commitment you shouldn't be a couple. Stay single and unattached if you don't like to share.

Completely agree. However, no prenup can be written to restrict sharing while marrying. Although no state will interfere if you don't. See McGuire v. McGuire 59 N.W.2d 336 (Neb. 1953) where the court refused to find a cause of action for a married woman suit for lack of support. But that is not the point of this prenup thread. The point of a prenup was to prevent (in a couple's consensual agreement) excessive sharing after divorce if it occurs.

[visceral image 0]

I am with Jeffery on this topic; I have been through a divorce. In fact, in my divorce; we did not have an attorney because I gave her everything, the house, the cars, the furniture and the money; plus 2000 a month for five years. I will be getting married again and I have faith it will all work well, but if not, I will work tirelessly to make sure she is well taken care of.

Oh, no Slim, I will not marry you.

[mox 298]

The topic is one that will never be settled. Honestly I wish the states would impose mandatory pre-nups on couples, just so it wouldn't be an issue. Even if it was as simple as "what was mine before the marriage is still mine if we divorce," it would be a good thing. Two people in love simply can't be trusted to make this decision. What's worse, if only one of them is in love, they're at a disadvantage.

As for me, I wish I'd done a pre-nup with my ex-wife. She turned out to be a completely different person than I thought I'd married. But at the time, you couldn't have gotten me to do a pre-nup to save my life. I was in love, and it was all puppydogs and rainbows. As for my next marriage, I won't do a pre-nup for that either. I am, in fact, an idiot.

[Satellite 1]

There is no 60/40, 40/60 or 50/50. or any other ratio. It is 100% shared.

I think you are simply missing the point of a prenup. Although some prenups may seem like they control what happens during marriage, those provisions are not usually enforceable. And few people write prenups that say everything I earn is my separate property and everything you earn is your separate property. Noteable exception - Barry bonds in his first marriage. But instead what people are saying in prenups, is after we are divorced, it's no longer going to be 100% shared. But during marriage by all means 100% shared. I think in some cases the prenup can act as an incentive to keep the marriage together, although I see many draw backs with the disadvantaged spouse being forced to stay because they know their standard of living will fall dramatically otherwise. But, hey, that might be the price of freedom

And by the way I have not once criticized your views on prenups. I just try to inform people in a general sense.

plus 2000 a month for five years. I will be getting married again and I have faith it will all work well, but if not, I will work tirelessly to make sure she is well taken care of.

Have the five years already passed? If not, does your future spouse know that all the income she "earns" and puts in your "joint" bank account can be seized by your ex-spouse? As well as all your separate property, including the home you might be living in and the car you are driving, in case things go sour financially.

[Turboguy 6]

[Life is too short. I plan on spending eternity with my wife and family (not my money, not my job, and not my business) in the afterlife. I don't condemn those that mutually desire one. I don't expect others to share my beliefs. What others do is for them to decide themselves. I am only stating my opinion in an open forum that encourages free thought.

Tell me something Jeffery. You would never do a prenup because you are head over heals in love and your marriage is going to last for eternity, Right? I think you said you were divorced. What did you think about your first marriage? Did you marry that woman with the idea it would last a few years? Don't you think the same could happen in your second? Don't you think most people get married expecting it to last forever? Most don't. Intercultural marriages may even have a little more risk.

I am glad you are sharing your opinion and it is definately your right and of course it is mine to disagree with you. I don't disagree with your right not to want a prenup. Maybe there is no reason for one. Some people think anyone who buys a mail order bride is sleazy. They have a right to feel that way and we all know they are foolish and misinformed. There is nothing wrong with wanting a prenup as long as you are not forcing it on your future spouce. There is nothing wrong with not wanting one. It has nothing to do with the realtionship. It governs divorce not marriage and everyone with or without one hopes their marriage will be happy and long lasting.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Turboguy

[slim 1,525]

I think it's a lot easier to say "I don't need a pre-nup" when you, in fact, don't need a pre-nup.