Islam: a Plan for World Domination?

[Heracles 417]

ah it's his show so of course he is going to have the last word. You know, this is along the same lines of people crapping on about fox news. It does not take a genius to realize they are a news channel setup to show stories which matter to right wing viewers. Just in case liberals have not smelt the coffee yet, so of us are not interested in hearing about gay rights or what Puff Daddy is wearing 24/7..

That must be where they sell themselves as 'fair and balanced' when they are anything but. To be fair I don't think there's much specifically wrong with Fox that isn't also wrong with every other network news channel. That being the case, I don't see how that's anything to crow about - its simply rather sad IMO.

How are they not fair? They are just discussing stories relevant to XYZ viewers; which many on the left seem to have a problem with.

[Peikko 1,575]

So to attack the US while turn a blind eye to others is ethically wrong.

I am neither attacking the US nor turning a blind eye to other countries' expansionist agendas. What I am doing is suggesting that some conflicts are ill conceived and do not produce the results that are touted and that sometimes the 'threats' to stability are inflated because of concerns that are more to do with a profit motive than an ideological stance.

I am also suggesting that conflicts are not black and white, good against evil, brave soldier fighting coward. Where one stands in relation to a conflict very much reflects how much you believe in the aims of the conflict. This is not a particularly difficult concept.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

ah it's his show so of course he is going to have the last word. You know, this is along the same lines of people crapping on about fox news. It does not take a genius to realize they are a news channel setup to show stories which matter to right wing viewers. Just in case liberals have not smelt the coffee yet, so of us are not interested in hearing about gay rights or what Puff Daddy is wearing 24/7..

That must be where they sell themselves as 'fair and balanced' when they are anything but. To be fair I don't think there's much specifically wrong with Fox that isn't also wrong with every other network news channel. That being the case, I don't see how that's anything to crow about - its simply rather sad IMO.

How are they not fair? They are just discussing stories relevant to XYZ viewers; which many on the left seem to have a problem with.

Their trademark slogan is "fair and balanced". As I said - I don't have a problem specifically with Fox as with the gamut of corporate mass-media, which is really of a muchness.

That said, discussions about the media are rather beyond the scope of this thread IMO. The waters have become muddy enough without introducing wholly separate subjects into the mix. I'd suggest starting a thread specifically about the media if you want to discuss it - it doesn't have much of a place here IMHO.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Number 6

[smoke20 0]

My point is, if you are going to engage in conflict/war, at least make sure that you have a workable plan to improve the situation that you are getting into so that the outcome is at least worth fighting for.

As things stand, Iraq is a mess with no tenable solution in sight which was predicted by many experts BEFORE the fighting began and is not simply a product of rose coloured hind site.

Agreed. What's 'wrong' or 'leftist' about that? Must just be me who doesn't see the connection..

no nothing wrong or leftist about that. what is wrong & leftist is that the left has conveniently forgotten, they voted & authorized going to war in iraq on the same intelligents info. now that the war isn't as popular of an idea it once was "Bush did it, Bush lied to us, its Bush's oil war"

[Peikko 1,575]

no nothing wrong or leftist about that. what is wrong & leftist is that the left has conveniently forgotten, they voted & authorized going to war in iraq on the same intelligents info. now that the war isn't as popular of an idea it once was "Bush did it, Bush lied to us, its Bush's oil war"

So, what you are saying is that I am not entitled to question a war, that I questioned from day one, because some politician I have no allegiance to nor did I vote for, voted & authorised this war? That makes sense.

[Heracles 417]

Number_6, that was my whole point about Indonesia. Everyone has their own agenda. It is time many on the left realize that. What you guys label wild tangent I call being interrelated. So for someone to sit here and say the US is imperialistic and imply every other nation is not is basically being in denial. For example, for many in the world it is not about blogging or cheap flights, as with many English, etc but rather about expanding their country's personal interests. Just the other day I read an article where China had been busted hacking into Australian, NZ and German government computers. Moral / imoral it is happening everyday. So to attack the US while turn a blind eye to others is ethically wrong.

Who says its being ignored? We're merely applying a general point to specific examples relating to the activities of the country we now reside in / or wish to make our home. Rather that's what I was doing... In the case of Iran we've inherited a more dangerous world created by flawed and short sighted foreign policy decisions dating back to a watershed moment in the 1950s, contrasting with today where the Iran that came out of the 1979 revolution (taking back govt from an imposed regime) is currently 'public enemy number 1'. I sooner not deny the connection between the two. Again - I don't see why that is so hard to understand, or indeed what is particularly 'lefist' about it.

Come on, stuff like that is always ignored hence why it is never discussed. The more someone hates the US, the less likely they are to talk about or care about anything another nation is doing. Iran's actions speak for themself. Just because we orchestrated the coup does not mean we actually carried it out ourself. Nonetheless, they need to get over it. Which in that region is almost impossible as holding on to grudges is their way of life. EG Palestinians. But I know you will not understand it, moving on that is, because you personally have advocated before that urban black Americans living in dense communities pretty much have a right to be violent because they where once segregated and oppressed. Therefore insinuating it is basically okay and understandable that they are more likely to use violence as a means to get their way.

PS What is leftist about it is the like-minded view of stuff.

[smoke20 0]

no nothing wrong or leftist about that. what is wrong & leftist is that the left has conveniently forgotten, they voted & authorized going to war in iraq on the same intelligents info. now that the war isn't as popular of an idea it once was "Bush did it, Bush lied to us, its Bush's oil war"

So, what you are saying is that I am not entitled to question a war, that I questioned from day one, because some politician I have no allegiance to nor did I vote for, voted & authorised this war? That makes sense.

no i'm not singling you out or number 6. i'm calling out the dems (the left) for doing it. i'm not saying you or anyone else in this thread has flip floped on it. the democratic party has.

[Heracles 417]

My point is, if you are going to engage in conflict/war, at least make sure that you have a workable plan to improve the situation that you are getting into so that the outcome is at least worth fighting for.

As things stand, Iraq is a mess with no tenable solution in sight which was predicted by many experts BEFORE the fighting began and is not simply a product of rose coloured hind site.

Agreed. What's 'wrong' or 'leftist' about that? Must just be me who doesn't see the connection..

no nothing wrong or leftist about that. what is wrong & leftist is that the left has conveniently forgotten, they voted & authorized going to war in iraq on the same intelligents info. now that the war isn't as popular of an idea it once was "Bush did it, Bush lied to us, its Bush's oil war"

How would it succeed anyway when most hardcore liberals are always negative about stuff like this... Not the first time they have had this attitude either. Happened in Vietnam. All you ever hear from the hardcore left is negative rhetoric. This is bad. That is bad. This sucks. That sucks. What was the Vietnam war about again? they hadn't thought about the oil excuse back then. Now I remember, it was against the institution.. LMAO

Edited September 13, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Caladan 19]

Barack Obama gave an interview back in 2002 or 2003 detailing why he didn't support the ramp-up to the Iraq war, and his analysis back then was pretty much what is standard now. 1) There weren't any WMDs, and smart people knew that and 2) Iraq would be likely to turn into a religious fueled civil war. Now, Obama wasn't even in office yet, and he managed to see through the bullshit. Hell, you can find Cheney saying the same thing in 1994!

So, I think the warning signs were there well before we invaded. We chose to do so with 1/5th the number of troops we needed and that to me suggests we didn't much care. So yeah, we knew, or we should have known before we invaded what we were likely to face. At absolute best, you have criminal incompetence. At worst, you have an administration that thinks it's not a bad idea to use the political will after 9/11 to start smacking around the Middle East on the assumption that most Americans can't tell Sunni from Shi'a anyway.

[Peikko 1,575]

Come on, stuff like that is always ignored hence why it is never discussed. The more someone hates the US, the less likely they are to talk about or care about anything another nation is doing. Iran's actions speak for themself. Just because we orchestrated the coup does not mean we actually carried it out ourself. Nonetheless, they need to get over it. Which in that region is almost impossible as holding on to grudges is their way of life. EG Palestinians. But I know you will not understand it, moving on that is, because you personally have advocated before that urban black Americans living in dense communities pretty much have a right to be violent because they where once segregated and oppressed. Therefore insinuating it is basically okay and understandable that they are more likely to use violence as a means to get their way.

This post is a product of a delusion. What you see is what you want to see, not what is there. I am pretty certain that no one condones 'black American' violence, or sees it as something they have a 'right to' as a result of previous oppressions. It is quite likely that some people see the violence as understandable in the light of their previous treatment, but not acceptable, that's just ridiculous.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Come on, stuff like that is always ignored hence why it is never discussed. The more someone hates the US, the less likely they are to talk about or care about anything another nation is doing. Iran's actions speak for themself. Just because we orchestrated the coup does not mean we actually carried it out ourself. Nonetheless, they need to get over it. Which in that region is almost impossible as holding on to grudges is their way of life. EG Palestinians. But I know you will not understand it, moving on that is, because you personally have advocated before that urban black Americans living in dense communities pretty much have a right to be violent because they where once segregated and oppressed. Therefore insinuating it is basically okay and understandable that they are more likely to use violence as a means to get their way.

PS What is leftist about it is the like-minded view of stuff.

1) We live in the US or are intending to move there. Its therefore somewhat natural that we focus on what our respective governments do or have gotten up to. It doesn't mean that everything else is ignored, or otherwise 'ok'.

2) The difference between orchestrating and carrying it out yourself is rather tenuous at best. Its still murder, whether you pull the trigger yourself or hire someone else to do it.

3) They should get over it? Well that isn't the issue anymore is it? The issue is that there is a historical legacy of distrust between two countries, and neither has any reason to trust the other. That is related entirely to the 1953 coup and the aftermath of the 1979 revolution. Different events - but they can't really be separated (i.e. the one precipitated the other).

4) I have never, ever stated implicitly or otherwise that a persons background gives them the right to conduct 'violent, criminal behaviours'. Given your fetish for sweeping generalisations however - I can see how a short and selective memory can be distort your perceptions.

[smoke20 0]

Barack Obama is the one dem candidate i do like. and it is for that exact reason (his stance on the war hasn't changed). i think he is a very stand up man & would be a great president. unfortunately most dems are leaning toward the clinton camp.

[Heracles 417]

Come on, stuff like that is always ignored hence why it is never discussed. The more someone hates the US, the less likely they are to talk about or care about anything another nation is doing. Iran's actions speak for themself. Just because we orchestrated the coup does not mean we actually carried it out ourself. Nonetheless, they need to get over it. Which in that region is almost impossible as holding on to grudges is their way of life. EG Palestinians. But I know you will not understand it, moving on that is, because you personally have advocated before that urban black Americans living in dense communities pretty much have a right to be violent because they where once segregated and oppressed. Therefore insinuating it is basically okay and understandable that they are more likely to use violence as a means to get their way.

This post is a product of a delusion. What you see is what you want to see, not what is there. I am pretty certain that no one condones 'black American' violence, or sees it as something they have a 'right to' as a result of previous oppressions. It is quite likely that some people see the violence as understandable in the light of their previous treatment, but not acceptable, that's just ridiculous.

Well I guess that is the difference between us. We look for solutions whereas you guys look at stating the obvious. So as long as a liberal says the war is bad and wrong, their work is done. As long as a liberal says global warming is an issue, their work is done.

What I would like to know is what should the US do if a major city is attacked again? So lets assume LA is attacked and 100,000 die. The only thing we know is that Al Qaeda is responsible..

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My point is, if you are going to engage in conflict/war, at least make sure that you have a workable plan to improve the situation that you are getting into so that the outcome is at least worth fighting for.

As things stand, Iraq is a mess with no tenable solution in sight which was predicted by many experts BEFORE the fighting began and is not simply a product of rose coloured hind site.

Agreed. What's 'wrong' or 'leftist' about that? Must just be me who doesn't see the connection..

no nothing wrong or leftist about that. what is wrong & leftist is that the left has conveniently forgotten, they voted & authorized going to war in iraq on the same intelligents info. now that the war isn't as popular of an idea it once was "Bush did it, Bush lied to us, its Bush's oil war"

You forget some of us came from outside of the US - and our public debates on this issue were rather different. There was massive (MASSIVE) public opposition to the war in the UK. What I don't understand is how the subsequent revelations as to the quality of intelligence and the conduct of politicians basically showed that the general public knew more than the policy-makers themselves at the time.

Given that this is questionable assertion at best, its no leap of faith to suggest that we were lied to. Everything that emerged subsequently (Curveball, the dodgy dossiers, admissions of former officials, the Downing Street Memo etc) validated the initial scepticism.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well I guess that is the difference between us. We look for solutions

Like nuking Chechnya, and meting out corporal punishment to kids?