Islam: a Plan for World Domination?

[BabyBlueSusie 1]

As you said you hate war. Whereas I am not afraid to fight what I stand for. Many of you fail to realize or accept most nations where built and secured through means of war and not by blogs or forums.

Some great rhetoric and some failure to understand what I say, but no attempt to construct any form of argument, which leaves us where exactly?

Likewise your argument is stock standard left wing rhetoric. War is bad and wrong. No sh!t.. but is also inevitable unless you have your head in the sand. You know like-minded people had the same attitude in WWII. Hence why 50,000,000+ people ended up dead..

Many on the left also fail to accept Bin Laden's own quote, "We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.".. So whether you accept war and violence or not, others will bring it to your door step. The worst thing a nation can do is sit there, like a naive idiot, and take it. Much like being a victim of bullying. Until someone fights back the bully will never ever stop.

and your rhetoric is somehow unique?

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

If someone attacked me I sure as hell wouldn't go and smack someone else unrelated.

thank you for that

[Heracles 417]

Is the mention of the UK Govts intended to suggest that I should find the policy somehow less offensive. It doesn't I'm afraid (being well aware of the UK's less than salubrious imperial past).

There is nothing imperialistic about it. The Iranian government at the time screwed over the English oil company. So the English government screwed them back. It is just unfortunate that America stepped in to do the right thing but is now the scapegoat. One again the information turns out to be false that the Iranian government was Russian backed.

[Heracles 417]

O'reilly may disagree with his guest but at least he gives them a chance to speak. In comparison, Olbermann just flat out attacks people with differing views with the everyone else is an idiot attitude.

You must mean where he says "you can have the last word" before taking it himself.

ah it's his show so of course he is going to have the last word. You know, this is along the same lines of people crapping on about fox news. It does not take a genius to realize they are a news channel setup to show stories which matter to right wing viewers. Just in case liberals have not smelt the coffee yet, so of us are not interested in hearing about gay rights or what Puff Daddy is wearing 24/7..

[Peikko 1,575]

My point is, if you are going to engage in conflict/war, at least make sure that you have a workable plan to improve the situation that you are getting into so that the outcome is at least worth fighting for.

As things stand, Iraq is a mess with no tenable solution in sight which was predicted by many experts BEFORE the fighting began and is not simply a product of rose coloured hind site.

[GaryC 7]

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Absolutely yes we are fighting Bin Laden and Al Queda in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Absolutely yes we are fighting Bin Laden and Al Queda in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We are 'now', but its hard to believe that this was the plan when the policy was originally conceived...

[GaryC 7]

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Absolutely yes we are fighting Bin Laden and Al Queda in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We are 'now', but its hard to believe that this was the plan when the policy was originally conceived...

That was then, this is now.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Is the mention of the UK Govts intended to suggest that I should find the policy somehow less offensive. It doesn't I'm afraid (being well aware of the UK's less than salubrious imperial past).

There is nothing imperialistic about it. The Iranian government at the time screwed over the English oil company. So the English government screwed them back. It is just unfortunate that America stepped in to do the right thing but is now the scapegoat. One again the information turns out to be false that the Iranian government was Russian backed.

In other words - its perfectly fine to depose a government which although far from perfect was rather more representative than the current one, purely for private commercial gain. hard to see how that is justifiable in any moral/ethical sense. Pretty much validates Purple Hibiscus' point.

And BTW - Britain does have an imperial past that includes, and goes somewhat before 1953 (as in a few centuries, nothing major).

[Heracles 417]

As you said you hate war. Whereas I am not afraid to fight what I stand for. Many of you fail to realize or accept most nations where built and secured through means of war and not by blogs or forums.

Some great rhetoric and some failure to understand what I say, but no attempt to construct any form of argument, which leaves us where exactly?

Likewise your argument is stock standard left wing rhetoric. War is bad and wrong. No sh!t.. but is also inevitable unless you have your head in the sand. You know like-minded people had the same attitude in WWII. Hence why 50,000,000+ people ended up dead..

Many on the left also fail to accept Bin Laden's own quote, "We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.".. So whether you accept war and violence or not, others will bring it to your door step. The worst thing a nation can do is sit there, like a naive idiot, and take it. Much like being a victim of bullying. Until someone fights back the bully will never ever stop.

and your rhetoric is somehow unique?

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

It is not rhetoric. I simple disagree with what you are saying and have heard it many times before. My background is Greek and I know while visiting Greece many there also have similar views to yours.

If someone attacked me I sure as hell wouldn't go and smack someone else unrelated.

thank you for that

How so when at the time there was evidence linking Osama to Iraq and to WMDs? Once again at the time. Keep in mind 9/11 was still fresh in every bodies mind.

Nonetheless it is not only about Iraq but also Iran; A country which is the real enemy of the US. Nothing is black and white. It is not 1942. A small weapon nowadays can kill millions. Which means the US cannot simple wait to be attacked, on that scale, to respond to a threat. Sept/11 was a warning. I guess it is only human to pretend something awful is not possible and be in denial about it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Absolutely yes we are fighting Bin Laden and Al Queda in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We are 'now', but its hard to believe that this was the plan when the policy was originally conceived...

That was then, this is now.

Sure - but when you consider whether things are "better or worse", you're now fighting a ground war on two fronts, with no real end in sight.

[GaryC 7]

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Absolutely yes we are fighting Bin Laden and Al Queda in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We are 'now', but its hard to believe that this was the plan when the policy was originally conceived...

That was then, this is now.

Sure - but when you consider whether things are "better or worse", you're now fighting a ground war on two fronts, with no real end in sight.

It doesn't really matter now does it? Complaining about what is in the past does nothing to make it better now. We just need to play the hand we have now.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

sure Bin Laden said that, but do you really believe that we are fighting Bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Absolutely yes we are fighting Bin Laden and Al Queda in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We are 'now', but its hard to believe that this was the plan when the policy was originally conceived...

That was then, this is now.

Sure - but when you consider whether things are "better or worse", you're now fighting a ground war on two fronts, with no real end in sight.

It doesn't really matter now does it? Complaining about what is in the past does nothing to make it better now. We just need to play the hand we have now.

I don't disagree.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

O'reilly may disagree with his guest but at least he gives them a chance to speak. In comparison, Olbermann just flat out attacks people with differing views with the everyone else is an idiot attitude.

You must mean where he says "you can have the last word" before taking it himself.

ah it's his show so of course he is going to have the last word. You know, this is along the same lines of people crapping on about fox news. It does not take a genius to realize they are a news channel setup to show stories which matter to right wing viewers. Just in case liberals have not smelt the coffee yet, so of us are not interested in hearing about gay rights or what Puff Daddy is wearing 24/7..

That must be where they sell themselves as 'fair and balanced' when they are anything but. To be fair I don't think there's much specifically wrong with Fox that isn't also wrong with every other network news channel. That being the case, I don't see how that's anything to crow about - its simply rather sad IMO.

My point is, if you are going to engage in conflict/war, at least make sure that you have a workable plan to improve the situation that you are getting into so that the outcome is at least worth fighting for.

As things stand, Iraq is a mess with no tenable solution in sight which was predicted by many experts BEFORE the fighting began and is not simply a product of rose coloured hind site.

Agreed. What's 'wrong' or 'leftist' about that? Must just be me who doesn't see the connection..

Edited September 13, 2007 by Number 6

[Heracles 417]

Is the mention of the UK Govts intended to suggest that I should find the policy somehow less offensive. It doesn't I'm afraid (being well aware of the UK's less than salubrious imperial past).

There is nothing imperialistic about it. The Iranian government at the time screwed over the English oil company. So the English government screwed them back. It is just unfortunate that America stepped in to do the right thing but is now the scapegoat. One again the information turns out to be false that the Iranian government was Russian backed.

In other words - its perfectly fine to depose a government which although far from perfect was rather more representative than the current one, purely for private commercial gain. hard to see how that is justifiable in any moral/ethical sense. Pretty much validates Purple Hibiscus' point.

And BTW - Britain does have an imperial past that includes, and goes somewhat before 1953 (as in a few centuries, nothing major).

Number_6, that was my whole point about Indonesia. Everyone has their own agenda. It is time many on the left realize that. What you guys label wild tangent I call being interrelated. So for someone to sit here and say the US is imperialistic therefore imply every other nation is not, is basically being in denial. For example, for many in the world it is not about blogging or cheap flights, as with many English, etc but rather about expanding their country's personal interests. Just the other day I read an article where China had been busted hacking into Australian, NZ and German government computers. Moral / imoral it is happening everyday. So to attack the US while turn a blind eye to others is ethically wrong.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Is the mention of the UK Govts intended to suggest that I should find the policy somehow less offensive. It doesn't I'm afraid (being well aware of the UK's less than salubrious imperial past).

There is nothing imperialistic about it. The Iranian government at the time screwed over the English oil company. So the English government screwed them back. It is just unfortunate that America stepped in to do the right thing but is now the scapegoat. One again the information turns out to be false that the Iranian government was Russian backed.

In other words - its perfectly fine to depose a government which although far from perfect was rather more representative than the current one, purely for private commercial gain. hard to see how that is justifiable in any moral/ethical sense. Pretty much validates Purple Hibiscus' point.

And BTW - Britain does have an imperial past that includes, and goes somewhat before 1953 (as in a few centuries, nothing major).

Number_6, that was my whole point about Indonesia. Everyone has their own agenda. It is time many on the left realize that. What you guys label wild tangent I call being interrelated. So for someone to sit here and say the US is imperialistic and imply every other nation is not is basically being in denial. For example, for many in the world it is not about blogging or cheap flights, as with many English, etc but rather about expanding their country's personal interests. Just the other day I read an article where China had been busted hacking into Australian, NZ and German government computers. Moral / imoral it is happening everyday. So to attack the US while turn a blind eye to others is ethically wrong.

Who says its being ignored? We're merely applying a general point to specific examples relating to the activities of the country we now reside in / or wish to make our home. Rather that's what I was doing... In the case of Iran we've inherited a more dangerous world created by flawed and short sighted foreign policy decisions dating back to a watershed moment in the 1950s, contrasting with today where the Iran that came out of the 1979 revolution (taking back govt from an imposed regime) is currently 'public enemy number 1'. I sooner not deny the connection between the two. Again - I don't see why that is so hard to understand, or indeed what is particularly 'lefist' about it.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Number 6