Canadians who travelled to US to have brain tumors removed are suing Ontario for long wait times

[Caladan 19]

I am certain that every U.S. private HMO lets you travel out of the country to see whatever specialist you want and picks up the tab, right?

Believe it or not, you can have private insurance in Canada, too. At least you can in Alberta. Many people don't, but it isn't illegal. And while there are delays, oddly enough, you wouldn't believe the sorts of delays you have trying to treat a brain tumor with no insurance in the U.S.

From what I understand, every province (much like every state here in the U.S.) in Canada runs health care differently though. Ontario works under a far more "socialized" system than Alberta. This probably explains why the ability to purchase private medical insurance in Ontario isn't an option, whereas it is doable in Alberta.

I don't know much about the other provinces, however. It'd be interesting to see how they all compared.

Anyway... the point is that, in many cases involving expensive procedures, there can be very long wait times for patients in Canada. More often than not, this isn't the case in the United States; however, health care here is usually much more expensive. So in essence, you pay for that quick access.

As stated by someone else in this thread, no country's health care system is "perfect." They all have flaws and could be improved.

Did the article say that it wasn't permitted in Ontario? It said that banning private insurance had been struck down in Quebec. My experience is only with Alberta's, and to be honest, it really seems as good as my insurance through school.

In any case, having insurance doesn't mean that the procedure will be available.... From what I understand the problem isn't so much that health care is rationed or anything, but that there's a shortage of doctors (as they can all go to the U.S.) I'm just not a fan of these kinds of examples, as if the insurance company in the U.S. would have had no problem with the person going off to a specialist with no referral, or that a person without private insurance would be able to get treated.

[thetreble 19]

I"m not really very knowledgeable on this (although I think it's important to get views from Canadians who have lived through the system, that is the only way you could truly know what it is like....) but does supplemental insurance = private insurance? I have always had OHIP + supplemental insurance but I suppose that supplemental insurance comes from carriers that work with the Canadian government? Eh..I don't really know.

Canadian health care has its flaws like every system. I had strep throat here in the US and asking OHIP to pick up my tab for a throat infection wasn't going to happen. Even I knew that. Something like a brain tumor is unforunate and I'm sorry that these two individuals had to go state side. But lots of people have to do that. My younger brother who is a hockey player had a very serious shoulder injury. The only way to get him an MRI fast was to go to the US to do so. We paid out of pocket. Didn't bother my parents. I realize that brain surgery is 100X the cost but people in the US go bust up every day because of their medical expenses they can't afford. This is just a huge story in Canada because many Canadians really don't have a clue what people in the US go through when it comes to health care and this sort of thing doesn't happen to the same amount of Canadians in comparison to the stories I have heard from people here about their loved ones going in large debt for health costs.

[trailmix 77]

I"m not really very knowledgeable on this (although I think it's important to get views from Canadians who have lived through the system, that is the only way you could truly know what it is like....) but does supplemental insurance = private insurance? I have always had OHIP + supplemental insurance but I suppose that supplemental insurance comes from carriers that work with the Canadian government? Eh..I don't really know.

You are right, supplemental insurance doesn't equal private insurance. If you bought private insurance here in Alberta (true private insurance) it would be a waste of money as private health care providers are not allowed to offer their services in Alberta. This is an ongoing discussion with government as some think they should be able to.

Supplemental is offered by private firms, but they cover costs like glasses, dental, prescription costs - not medical treatment.

Caladan is correct, there is a shortage of staff and a large part of that is due to the drain of Doctors and Nurses to the U.S.. I'm sure everyone heard about the quadruplets that were born in Montana last month because there wasn't enough 'room' for them here. It's true and the reason is not because the Province can't afford to expand it (they can and it is a planned expansion) it's because they have no one to staff new areas. This is true of all staffing in Alberta right now though, not just the Health sector.

Just for the record, I saw a documentary about this not so long ago. It's not that Canadian Doctors and Nurses are horribly underpaid and living in poverty while their U.S. counterparts are living in the lap of luxury. It's just that the U.S. facilities do pay more and I'm sure they also offer incentives for Canadians to join them.

[Caladan 19]

One of the things that we've had to deal with as newlyweds is trying to get C. insured. My coverage can be extended to a spouse for about $8000 a year, which isn't happening.... but what's been weird about our discussions is how much not having universal health care for basics affects your decisions about life. It has never been a problem for C. to take a risk and switch jobs because health care isn't an issue. The first time we talked about having children he was bewildered by how fast I seized on 'we need to make we have a job with group insurance' over 'in a position to have a house' or 'being financially secure' or similar.

The Canadian system is far from perfect, but to be honest, if his mother develops cancer she's in a far better position than my mother (who has a high deductible plan.) I personally hope we get some kind of basic universal health care because my parents, a couple in their 50s, perfect health and solid family histories, home-owners (by which I mean no mortgage, I'm so proud of them), solid income, cannot afford to switch insurance plans to something like an HMO that would allow my mother regular checkups. Meaning my dad might have to give up his 25-year-old business for a salaried job just for the health care. Doesn't seem to encourage entrepreneurship.

[trailmix 77]

One of the things that we've had to deal with as newlyweds is trying to get C. insured. My coverage can be extended to a spouse for about $8000 a year, which isn't happening.... but what's been weird about our discussions is how much not having universal health care for basics affects your decisions about life. It has never been a problem for C. to take a risk and switch jobs because health care isn't an issue. The first time we talked about having children he was bewildered by how fast I seized on 'we need to make we have a job with group insurance' over 'in a position to have a house' or 'being financially secure' or similar.

The Canadian system is far from perfect, but to be honest, if his mother develops cancer she's in a far better position than my mother (who has a high deductible plan.) I personally hope we get some kind of basic universal health care because my parents, a couple in their 50s, perfect health and solid family histories, home-owners (by which I mean no mortgage, I'm so proud of them), solid income, cannot afford to switch insurance plans to something like an HMO that would allow my mother regular checkups. Meaning my dad might have to give up his 25-year-old business for a salaried job just for the health care. Doesn't seem to encourage entrepreneurship.

I hear what you are saying. I actually hadn't even thought about the type of scenario you are talking about until I saw Sicko. I didn't realize (and I guess why would I) that you wouldn't be able to take your health care plan with you if you switched jobs.

Seems to me that the U.S. health system isn't just set up to be incredibly profitable for the companies involved, it is also set up to have American's living in fear. Fear is a powerful tool. (I know sounds like a conspiracy theory - but I don't know, is that so far fetched?)

Also, what kind of system basically requires that you will be unable to change your job if you want to??

[DeadPoolX 9]

I am certain that every U.S. private HMO lets you travel out of the country to see whatever specialist you want and picks up the tab, right?

Believe it or not, you can have private insurance in Canada, too. At least you can in Alberta. Many people don't, but it isn't illegal. And while there are delays, oddly enough, you wouldn't believe the sorts of delays you have trying to treat a brain tumor with no insurance in the U.S.

From what I understand, every province (much like every state here in the U.S.) in Canada runs health care differently though. Ontario works under a far more "socialized" system than Alberta. This probably explains why the ability to purchase private medical insurance in Ontario isn't an option, whereas it is doable in Alberta.

I don't know much about the other provinces, however. It'd be interesting to see how they all compared.

Anyway... the point is that, in many cases involving expensive procedures, there can be very long wait times for patients in Canada. More often than not, this isn't the case in the United States; however, health care here is usually much more expensive. So in essence, you pay for that quick access.

As stated by someone else in this thread, no country's health care system is "perfect." They all have flaws and could be improved.

Did the article say that it wasn't permitted in Ontario? It said that banning private insurance had been struck down in Quebec. My experience is only with Alberta's, and to be honest, it really seems as good as my insurance through school.

In any case, having insurance doesn't mean that the procedure will be available.... From what I understand the problem isn't so much that health care is rationed or anything, but that there's a shortage of doctors (as they can all go to the U.S.) I'm just not a fan of these kinds of examples, as if the insurance company in the U.S. would have had no problem with the person going off to a specialist with no referral, or that a person without private insurance would be able to get treated.

No, this particular article did not say that private insurance wasn't permitted in Ontario. However, I remember both reading and hearing reports about how private insurance is not available or permitted in Ontario at all. In fact, it was originally brought to my attention with a similar case as in the article posted in this thread -- a man needed an MRI (and some other procedures), but if he stayed in Canada, it'd be at least six months before he'd get anything done. So he and his wife went to the U.S. and got the procedures performed. It was a good thing too, because it turned out he had brain cancer and if he had waited, the physicians said he would've probably died (or eventually become crippled).

I think the Canadian health care system is good for less "intensive" things, such as regular checkups and cheaper prescription medication. However, when it comes to procedures (such as surgery or MRIs, CAT scans, PET scans, and so on), I feel that the American health care system is better. Costlier, perhaps, but in most cases, if you need something important like that done, you can't really wait around half a year or so before getting it.

So you need to decide which is more important: the overall cost of the procedure or possibly your health. Obviously, this is a personal decision and needs to be made on a case-by-case basis. If you're getting a "nose job," then you can probably wait a little while before having the operation; on the other hand, if it's a liver transplant, you're going to need that done a bit sooner.

If I had the power, I would create some sort of merger between the American and Canadian health care systems. I don't mean I would actually "combine" the two (they belong to two separate countries, after all), but I would take the health care we currently have in the United States and make a mixture of the best of the American and Canadian systems. Both have a lot to offer, so I think something like that would be very beneficial. It won't ever happen, but it's still a nice thought.

[Caladan 19]

I guess it depends on where you stand. If my mother needs a liver transplant, she's simply not going to get one. It's not a matter of 'short wait' vs. 'long wait' if you can't afford to pay at all.

The American system is great, but only if your occupation provides good health insurance, and you can be an educated person with a good job and still have no insurance. That's what seems screwy to me. Compound that with the fact that prevention is easier than cures, and it's really worrisome that many Americans can't get regular checkups. It's easier to fix the high blood pressure problem than it is to fix the resulting stroke.

[Marilyn. 340]

One of the things that we've had to deal with as newlyweds is trying to get C. insured. My coverage can be extended to a spouse for about $8000 a year, which isn't happening.... but what's been weird about our discussions is how much not having universal health care for basics affects your decisions about life. It has never been a problem for C. to take a risk and switch jobs because health care isn't an issue. The first time we talked about having children he was bewildered by how fast I seized on 'we need to make we have a job with group insurance' over 'in a position to have a house' or 'being financially secure' or similar.

The Canadian system is far from perfect, but to be honest, if his mother develops cancer she's in a far better position than my mother (who has a high deductible plan.) I personally hope we get some kind of basic universal health care because my parents, a couple in their 50s, perfect health and solid family histories, home-owners (by which I mean no mortgage, I'm so proud of them), solid income, cannot afford to switch insurance plans to something like an HMO that would allow my mother regular checkups. Meaning my dad might have to give up his 25-year-old business for a salaried job just for the health care. Doesn't seem to encourage entrepreneurship.

I hear what you are saying. I actually hadn't even thought about the type of scenario you are talking about until I saw Sicko. I didn't realize (and I guess why would I) that you wouldn't be able to take your health care plan with you if you switched jobs.

Seems to me that the U.S. health system isn't just set up to be incredibly profitable for the companies involved, it is also set up to have American's living in fear. Fear is a powerful tool. (I know sounds like a conspiracy theory - but I don't know, is that so far fetched?)

Also, what kind of system basically requires that you will be unable to change your job if you want to??

this is what worries me...

right now we have really good insurance.. they cover 100 percent of doctor's visits and tests etc and 90% of hospital stays, procedures and surgeries... but hubby wants to change jobs and I am worried that our insurance coverage with the new job might suck ...

[thetreble 19]

Our insurance right now stinks. Long gone are the days of going to the Doc and swiping my card!! We still have to pay 30 dollars for a docs visit, 150 dollars for a hospital visit, and a big sum for medicine. My husband has a good job but his insurance just sucks and its expensive. I agree that the Canadian system is great for every day things like doctors visits and very minor sicknesses.

[Marilyn. 340]

Our insurance right now stinks. Long gone are the days of going to the Doc and swiping my card!! We still have to pay 30 dollars for a docs visit, 150 dollars for a hospital visit, and a big sum for medicine. My husband has a good job but his insurance just sucks and its expensive. I agree that the Canadian system is great for every day things like doctors visits and very minor sicknesses.

we have to pay those copays too, 15 to 30 dollars for doctor's visit and $150 for hospital stays... if you didn't have any insurance you would have to pay a couple hundred dollars for every doctor's visit....

Edited September 7, 2007 by MarilynP

[thetreble 19]

Yeah i know. I learned my lesson in the past Have had three 600-800 dollar invoices in the 3 years I have been with the hubby. I was visiting here so much if I got sick I didn't have any coverage. Glad thats over though.