Judge strikes down part of Patriot Act

[Heracles 417]

So let me get this straight. They cannot tap calls or search and seize property. Maybe someone can enlighten me then on exactly how the authorities are supposed to prevent terror attacks.

Well the assumption here is that the government will use its powers for the good. That may well be the case, but given that we've had Watergate and similar scandals in the past - which have involved the abuse of power by our elected representatives, it would seem foolish to do away with our civil protections.

Who else are we going to rely on, the ACLU / US courts or the government appointed authorities??

ACLU and being unconstitutional are just about the two dumbest things I have ever heard of. Maybe if we are attacked I can use the US court system against the terrorists. Apparently the judges double up as special forces. I am also sure the ACLU and it's heroic members will take up arms and fight for this nation, not!!

PS Before anyone thinks that this whole war on terror is made up by the GWB admin and war mongers, keep in mind one thing; Humans have been at war 97% of our history..

Should we tear up the constitution then?

No but clearly lynch mobs like the ACLU are more interested in their own agenda than protecting lives or the citizens of this country. Hence why the do all of their dirty work behind the closed doors of the courts.

All they have to do to tap phones is get a warrant from a court - most of the time it is approved*. Its hardly a draconian policy - just ensures that there's a process of review. Take that away and you're taking it on trust that it won't be abused.

* This is what has historically been done to investigate regular criminals, including members of the mafia.

Yes and I can see how well it has worked for the US considering the incredibly low crime rate.

Edited September 6, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So let me get this straight. They cannot tap calls or search and seize property. Maybe someone can enlighten me then on exactly how the authorities are supposed to prevent terror attacks.

Well the assumption here is that the government will use its powers for the good. That may well be the case, but given that we've had Watergate and similar scandals in the past - which have involved the abuse of power by our elected representatives, it would seem foolish to do away with our civil protections.

Who else are we going to rely on, the ACLU / US courts or the government appointed authorities??

There's nothing wrong with a reasonable process of judicial oversight. Isn't this one of the reasons why we have a judicial arm of the government?

[Caladan 19]

The courts are part of the government-appointed authorities. They were being wrongly excluded by the act, which basically said that law enforcement was not answerable to basic court oversight.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So let me get this straight. They cannot tap calls or search and seize property. Maybe someone can enlighten me then on exactly how the authorities are supposed to prevent terror attacks.

Well the assumption here is that the government will use its powers for the good. That may well be the case, but given that we've had Watergate and similar scandals in the past - which have involved the abuse of power by our elected representatives, it would seem foolish to do away with our civil protections.

Who else are we going to rely on, the ACLU / US courts or the government appointed authorities??

ACLU and being unconstitutional are just about the two dumbest things I have ever heard of. Maybe if we are attacked I can use the US court system against the terrorists. Apparently the judges double up as special forces. I am also sure the ACLU and it's heroic members will take up arms and fight for this nation, not!!

PS Before anyone thinks that this whole war on terror is made up by the GWB admin and war mongers, keep in mind one thing; Humans have been at war 97% of our history..

Should we tear up the constitution then?

No but clearly lynch mobs like the ACLU are more interested in their own agenda than protecting lives or the citizens of this country. Hence why the do all of their dirty work behind the closed doors of the courts.

All they have to do to tap phones is get a warrant from a court - most of the time it is approved*. Its hardly a draconian policy - just ensures that there's a process of review. Take that away and you're taking it on trust that it won't be abused.

* This is what has historically been done to investigate regular criminals, including members of the mafia.

Yes and I can see how well it has worked for the US considering the incredibly low crime rate.

...Kid's of today are so f*cked up...

[mawilson 2,133]

So let me get this straight. They cannot tap calls or search and seize property. Maybe someone can enlighten me then on exactly how the authorities are supposed to prevent terror attacks.

By obtaining search and wiretap warrants.

[TracyTN 237]

So let me get this straight. They cannot tap calls or search and seize property. Maybe someone can enlighten me then on exactly how the authorities are supposed to prevent terror attacks.

Well the assumption here is that the government will use its powers for the good. That may well be the case, but given that we've had Watergate and similar scandals in the past - which have involved the abuse of power by our elected representatives, it would seem foolish to do away with our civil protections.

Who else are we going to rely on, the ACLU / US courts or the government appointed authorities??

ACLU and being unconstitutional are just about the two dumbest things I have ever heard of. Maybe if we are attacked I can use the US court system against the terrorists. Apparently the judges double up as special forces. I am also sure the ACLU and it's heroic members will take up arms and fight for this nation, not!!

PS Before anyone thinks that this whole war on terror is made up by the GWB admin and war mongers, keep in mind one thing; Humans have been at war 97% of our history..

Should we tear up the constitution then?

No but clearly lynch mobs like the ACLU are more interested in their own agenda than protecting lives or the citizens of this country. Hence why the do all of their dirty work behind the closed doors of the courts.

All they have to do to tap phones is get a warrant from a court - most of the time it is approved*. Its hardly a draconian policy - just ensures that there's a process of review. Take that away and you're taking it on trust that it won't be abused.

* This is what has historically been done to investigate regular criminals, including members of the mafia.

Yes and I can see how well it has worked for the US considering the incredibly low crime rate.

Well ######, this country sucks - let's all move!!!!

[Heracles 417]

...Kid's of today are so f*cked up...

I always thought you where a moron and you just proved it..

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

ACLU and being unconstitutional are just about the two dumbest things I have ever heard of. Maybe if we are attacked I can use the US court system against the terrorists. Apparently the judges double up as special forces. I am also sure the ACLU and it's heroic members will take up arms and fight for this nation, not!!

PS Before anyone thinks that this whole war on terror is made up by the GWB admin and war mongers, keep in mind one thing; Humans have been at war 97% of our history..

Should we tear up the constitution then?

No but clearly lynch mobs like the ACLU are more interested in their own agenda than protecting lives or the citizens of this country. Hence why the do all of their dirty work behind the closed doors of the courts.

here's one reason the aclu goes after high profile cases:

One of the cases the bill’s supporters cite as an example of the current problem is from January 2004, when the ACLU received $950,000 in a settlement with the city of San Diego. Although the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled the Boy Scouts could refuse to admit homosexual troop members and troop leaders, the ACLU still was able to succeed in its claim the city was showing favoritism to a religious organization by leasing the Scouts land for $1 a year.

link

from wikipedia:

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is the common name for an American organization consiting of two separate entities. The ACLU Foundation is a non-profit that focuses on litigation and communication efforts, whereas the American Civil Liberties Union focuses on legislative lobbying and does not have non-profit status.[1]

Funding

"...18% came from court awarded attorney fees.."

also:

The ACLU has received court awarded fees in numerous church-state cases. The Georgia chapter was awarded $150,000 in fees after suing a county demanding the removal of a Ten Commandments display from its courthouse;[24] a second Ten Commandments case in the State, in a different county, led to a $74,462 judgment.[25] Meanwhile, the State of Tennessee was required to pay $50,000, the State of Alabama $175,000, and the State of Kentucky $121,500, in similar Ten Commandments cases.

link

[mawilson 2,133]

So if they want to tap 100,000 plus phone lines you are recommending they spend the next 20 years taking each case to a judge; to get permission.

If they want to tap that many phone lines, we've got a problem.

The key word is "probable cause" - I don't want them tapping everyone's phone lines willy-nilly.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

...Kid's of today are so f*cked up...

I always thought you where a moron and you just proved it..

Well they're your words aren't they?

Personally I thought that the suggestion that the court warrant system is responsible for the 'low crime rate' (in sarcastic quotations) was rather idiotic, but I held my tongue

[Heracles 417]

Well ######, this country sucks - let's all move!!!!

Some concepts work others do not. It is time people here face it. Same with accepting that the ACLU are idiots.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

ACLU and being unconstitutional are just about the two dumbest things I have ever heard of. Maybe if we are attacked I can use the US court system against the terrorists. Apparently the judges double up as special forces. I am also sure the ACLU and it's heroic members will take up arms and fight for this nation, not!!

PS Before anyone thinks that this whole war on terror is made up by the GWB admin and war mongers, keep in mind one thing; Humans have been at war 97% of our history..

Should we tear up the constitution then?

No but clearly lynch mobs like the ACLU are more interested in their own agenda than protecting lives or the citizens of this country. Hence why the do all of their dirty work behind the closed doors of the courts.

here's one reason the aclu goes after high profile cases:

One of the cases the bill’s supporters cite as an example of the current problem is from January 2004, when the ACLU received $950,000 in a settlement with the city of San Diego. Although the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled the Boy Scouts could refuse to admit homosexual troop members and troop leaders, the ACLU still was able to succeed in its claim the city was showing favoritism to a religious organization by leasing the Scouts land for $1 a year.

link

from wikipedia:

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is the common name for an American organization consiting of two separate entities. The ACLU Foundation is a non-profit that focuses on litigation and communication efforts, whereas the American Civil Liberties Union focuses on legislative lobbying and does not have non-profit status.[1]

Funding

"...18% came from court awarded attorney fees.."

also:

The ACLU has received court awarded fees in numerous church-state cases. The Georgia chapter was awarded $150,000 in fees after suing a county demanding the removal of a Ten Commandments display from its courthouse;[24] a second Ten Commandments case in the State, in a different county, led to a $74,462 judgment.[25] Meanwhile, the State of Tennessee was required to pay $50,000, the State of Alabama $175,000, and the State of Kentucky $121,500, in similar Ten Commandments cases.

link

There is of course such a thing as context. In this specific context what is so disagreeable about their position?

[Caladan 19]

It's not really wiretapping so much as it is data mining, and the reason they didn't want judicial oversight is that data mining for terrorists (!!!!) means pulling information out of hundreds of thousands of records, most of whom are wholly innocent. That's why it's such a blatant lie to say 'we're only tapping the terrorists.' or 'we're only tapping terrorists who call overseas', since there isn't a way to figure out who is terrorists a priori with a magic eight ball, and if there were, they wouldn't be doing the data mining.

Still, it shouldn't be a hard thing, if such data mining is legal, to get a judge to sign off on a project that allows them to scan data for potential hits on a regular time schedule.

If it's legal.

If it's not legal, then there's your reason the government doesn't want oversight.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

ACLU and being unconstitutional are just about the two dumbest things I have ever heard of. Maybe if we are attacked I can use the US court system against the terrorists. Apparently the judges double up as special forces. I am also sure the ACLU and it's heroic members will take up arms and fight for this nation, not!!

PS Before anyone thinks that this whole war on terror is made up by the GWB admin and war mongers, keep in mind one thing; Humans have been at war 97% of our history..

Should we tear up the constitution then?

No but clearly lynch mobs like the ACLU are more interested in their own agenda than protecting lives or the citizens of this country. Hence why the do all of their dirty work behind the closed doors of the courts.

here's one reason the aclu goes after high profile cases:

One of the cases the bill’s supporters cite as an example of the current problem is from January 2004, when the ACLU received $950,000 in a settlement with the city of San Diego. Although the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled the Boy Scouts could refuse to admit homosexual troop members and troop leaders, the ACLU still was able to succeed in its claim the city was showing favoritism to a religious organization by leasing the Scouts land for $1 a year.

link

from wikipedia:

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is the common name for an American organization consiting of two separate entities. The ACLU Foundation is a non-profit that focuses on litigation and communication efforts, whereas the American Civil Liberties Union focuses on legislative lobbying and does not have non-profit status.[1]

Funding

"...18% came from court awarded attorney fees.."

also:

The ACLU has received court awarded fees in numerous church-state cases. The Georgia chapter was awarded $150,000 in fees after suing a county demanding the removal of a Ten Commandments display from its courthouse;[24] a second Ten Commandments case in the State, in a different county, led to a $74,462 judgment.[25] Meanwhile, the State of Tennessee was required to pay $50,000, the State of Alabama $175,000, and the State of Kentucky $121,500, in similar Ten Commandments cases.

link

There is of course such a thing as context. In this specific context what is so disagreeable about their position?

why not read the links and see if you can find out?

[Heracles 417]

...Kid's of today are so f*cked up...

I always thought you where a moron and you just proved it..

Well they're your words aren't they?

Personally I thought that the suggestion that the court warrant system is responsible for the 'low crime rate' (in sarcastic quotations) was rather idiotic, but I held my tongue

Maye you should speak to people who are involved in law enforcement. They have about a million rules, laws, processes and forms to fill out while the criminals are free to do as they please. Common sense would suggest we should free them from the BS and allow them to actually do their job.

here's one reason the aclu goes after high profile cases:

One of the cases the bill’s supporters cite as an example of the current problem is from January 2004, when the ACLU received $950,000 in a settlement with the city of San Diego. Although the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled the Boy Scouts could refuse to admit homosexual troop members and troop leaders, the ACLU still was able to succeed in its claim the city was showing favoritism to a religious organization by leasing the Scouts land for $1 a year.

link

from wikipedia:

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is the common name for an American organization consiting of two separate entities. The ACLU Foundation is a non-profit that focuses on litigation and communication efforts, whereas the American Civil Liberties Union focuses on legislative lobbying and does not have non-profit status.[1]

Funding

"...18% came from court awarded attorney fees.."

also:

The ACLU has received court awarded fees in numerous church-state cases. The Georgia chapter was awarded $150,000 in fees after suing a county demanding the removal of a Ten Commandments display from its courthouse;[24] a second Ten Commandments case in the State, in a different county, led to a $74,462 judgment.[25] Meanwhile, the State of Tennessee was required to pay $50,000, the State of Alabama $175,000, and the State of Kentucky $121,500, in similar Ten Commandments cases.

link

There is of course such a thing as context. In this specific context what is so disagreeable about their position?

Is that along the same context where the ACLU is defending child molester's 'rights' to freedom of speech and expression?????

Edited September 6, 2007 by Boo-Yah!