HALAL MEAT YES OR NO ACCORDING TO THE QURAN!

[wildroze22 0]

We know that Jews slaughter their meat like the muslims by pronouncing God's name on it making it 'Kosher'

Hi, can you please provide some jewish point of reference that says they mention God's name over the animal before slaughtering it?

there are arguments over this just as halal. some say that a blessing needs to be said in the morning before slaughter, others say it needs to be said right before being killed, others not at all. it is not a rule for making things kosher.

jews do however say a blessing before eating it... which is similar. but again, its not gds name, as that would be impossible. its a blessing

[mybackpages 0]

Speaking strictly from my own understnding in finding my way through Islam- I stop somewhat short of Adiel's view of hadiths. In theory he is correct- the hadiths are man made and are subject to our human errors. A hadith can not replace the quran. The Quran is the only source for Islamic practices. Where I do differ from Adiel is that there are solid strong hadiths that we can use as an example of how to put in practice the teachings of the quran.

The study of hadiths is a complex one. There is a methodology to determine strong from weak hadiths. Over the last 1000+ years many weak hadiths have been repeated so often that many muslims believe they are valid. The muslim community needs to educate itself. For me a hadith can play a valid role in nderstanding the practical implementations of the nuances of the Quranic verses, but i remain extremely skeptical of them.

Unfortunately the more you study the history of hadiths and the scholarship behind them, the more you realize how far away from the practices of the Prophet we have come. Scholars have allowed thier own biases and cultural experiences to color the meanings of these practices. Knowing this makes me more likley to rely only on the Quran.

The problem with replying solely on the Quran is that you have to understand the historical context in which many of the verses were revealed as well of the order of the revelations. The Quran is a whole picture and you can not pick and chose verses to say one thing is halal or another thing is haram.

I'm sure in my interretation of Islam I also bring my own western mindset and thinking to the table. I am sure I am wrong in some of my interpretations. Very very rarely will I ever state that something is for sure halal or haram. I may be confident in my understanding , bt there is alwys a chance for human error.

I think the example of the prophet is a wonderful way to try to live islamically, just as all the examples of all the prophets before. if the hadiths can give me good insight into this then I think they are valuable, but when the hadiths are used to justify areas in which the quran are not as clear, then I would be very hesitant to rely on them.

Take wearing hijab for example. Hijab is clearly commanded by the quran. There are hadiths that help us understand what is proper hijab. I do not accept that I have to dress as a 7th century Arab to properly meet the requirements of hijab. I am also fairly certain that covering my hair is not a requirement, BUT it is hard to say it is an absolute because of 1000+ years of the majority of scholars do agree on head covering. who am I to go against all this scholarship? But nonetheless I do disagree withthe scholars for my own practice of hijab when it comes to covering my hair. I didn;t wily nilly throw out the schoalrship, I examined it, studied the history of it, looked to the Quran for quidance and I came to the conclusion for now that it si not a requirement.

[chri'stina 190]

Hi,

thanks for the response. Actualy as far as pork goes yes its prohibited in Islam and Judaism, in Judaism because the old testement clearly states as does the Quran that it is unclean. It SHOULD also be prohoibited in christianity but the christians argue (it is infact an extremely weak argument with no basis) that pork is allowed because saint Paul had a dream that God made all animals clean. This argument is flawed first of all SAINT Paul, he is supposidly a saint not a prophet, only prophets have direct communication with God hence why they are called prophets, secondly why would God change his words, I thought he is all mighty all knowing, the truth is he NEVER changes his words only HUMANS do. Third if all animals are clean Im yet to find christians eating rat burgers or a dog burger. Fourth Jesus clearly states in matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Adiel (Mireys hubby)

Hi,

Firstly it was Peter not Paul with the dream, and as a Christian one would accept the idea that God can speak with whom He wills. Secondly, there are two issues-- Torah or Rabbinical Kosher, and either way it's more than just pork which is prohibited from the animal kingdom, including the shellfish but not excluding other land animals (the shellfish argument is that they are bottom feeders or low on the food chain and therefore unclean.). But back to the first-- the position is God did not change His words-- the point was in reference to sitting and eating with Goyim-- which was Rabbinically considered an unclean act. God was making a point-- He is the one who decided clean and unclean, and if he says somehting is clean it is clean. Christians do not believe God is bound by anything except that which He wills, since we believe he is all-powerful and not subject to rules. At the same time, He tends to be constant and not random In addition, rat and dog uncleanliness is Kosher-- but in your example a cutlural taboo not a religious one. Finally, in reference to your quote from Jesus above, He came to fufill the Mosaic code (613 laws total, which is stated that if you break one you are guilty of them all-- so Christians who harp on keeping the 10 commandments but cannot seem to answer why they don't keep the sabbath nor dietary laws need to learn why, as an aside) which is now null and void and replaced by the Christ Covanent, or law of Christ (as opposed to law of Moses). So actually by pointing that out, you have pointed out why teh kosher laws are rendered invalid and why, although I for one am still sticking as close to vegetarian as I can get with a meat-eating husband!

Thanks for adding this... I've read here before that 'Christians just musta wanted to eat pork and changed it LOL!', but the usual interpretation is that Christ was a Big Deal with a Brand New Covenant, and one of the things about the Brand New Covenant was that God was no longer to be considered just the God of the Hebrews, and that meant a lot of the signs of Being God's People (not eating certain things, considering other peoples unclean, the whole priestly intercession) no longer applied. God didn't change God's mind as much as God said 'The old covenant has been fulfilled. The terms of the new covenant are different.'

And this was communicated to Peter in a dream when he was wondering (as were a lot of other early Christians) whether new converts had to become Jews first in order to be Christians. The answer was 'call nothing that God has made unclean', or 'once again, Peter, you may be the rock but goodness you're clueless at times.'

I was reading this thread and caught that mistake too(Peter not Paul, and why) and was going to say something, but I see you both have covered it already.

[Nasturtium 500]

We know that Jews slaughter their meat like the muslims by pronouncing God's name on it making it 'Kosher'

Hi, can you please provide some jewish point of reference that says they mention God's name over the animal before slaughtering it?

there are arguments over this just as halal. some say that a blessing needs to be said in the morning before slaughter, others say it needs to be said right before being killed, others not at all. it is not a rule for making things kosher.

jews do however say a blessing before eating it... which is similar. but again, its not gds name, as that would be impossible. its a blessing

Do you mean it's impossible in the sense that it is unknown (as in "no one knows it"/"G-d has no name") or the sense that it is not pronounced (out of reverence)? I figured a lot of people may not understand the impossibility. Out of curiosity, if you attend a synagogue, do they use one of the other titles when it comes to the 4 letters (which of course doesn't happen often)? I know ours does, but I was curious about yours.

[wildroze22 0]

Do you mean it's impossible in the sense that it is unknown (as in "no one knows it"/"G-d has no name") or the sense that it is not pronounced (out of reverence)? I figured a lot of people may not understand the impossibility. Out of curiosity, if you attend a synagogue, do they use one of the other titles when it comes to the 4 letters (which of course doesn't happen often)? I know ours does, but I was curious about yours.

i meant that no one knows it, and the names we do use can only be used in the context of a prayer. i guess its debatable if using the name alone is part of a prayer... ive just never heard of a jew doing it. and similarly, it depends on the context when using the four letters. in prayer its ok to use the highest, but in everyday writing and speaking its mostly hashem.

[Alhamdulillah 0]

We know that Jews slaughter their meat like the muslims by pronouncing God's name on it making it 'Kosher'

Hi, can you please provide some jewish point of reference that says they mention God's name over the animal before slaughtering it?

there are arguments over this just as halal. some say that a blessing needs to be said in the morning before slaughter, others say it needs to be said right before being killed, others not at all. it is not a rule for making things kosher.

jews do however say a blessing before eating it... which is similar. but again, its not gds name, as that would be impossible. its a blessing

Thank you for responding. A muslim says "Bismillah" (translation = in the name of God) directly before slaughtering the animal and I had always assumed jews did this as well but after researching kosher a bit further, my understanding is that this is not true. Like you said, some say a blessing but it's not necessary for the "kosher" label to be applied to the product.

I've also been reading about the different "kosher" labels in the US and it's my understanding that there is no law governing the use of this label as that would go against separation of church and state. Do you have any insight about this? The way it seems is that any company, jewish or non, can slap a "K" on the product and claim it's kosher without any kind of recompense if it's not. Is there any one in particular strict/orthodox jews in this country trust more than others?

[Nasturtium 500]

i meant that no one knows it, and the names we do use can only be used in the context of a prayer. i guess its debatable if using the name alone is part of a prayer... ive just never heard of a jew doing it. and similarly, it depends on the context when using the four letters. in prayer its ok to use the highest, but in everyday writing and speaking its mostly hashem.

We do have the 4 letters though, and those are His name.. although no one knows the exact vowel sounds anymore... I have never heard of anyone using it in prayer though, but of course I haven't been listening in on everyone's prayers.

[wildroze22 0]

Thank you for responding. A muslim says "Bismillah" (translation = in the name of God) directly before slaughtering the animal and I had always assumed jews did this as well but after researching kosher a bit further, my understanding is that this is not true. Like you said, some say a blessing but it's not necessary for the "kosher" label to be applied to the product.

I've also been reading about the different "kosher" labels in the US and it's my understanding that there is no law governing the use of this label as that would go against separation of church and state. Do you have any insight about this? The way it seems is that any company, jewish or non, can slap a "K" on the product and claim it's kosher without any kind of recompense if it's not. Is there any one in particular strict/orthodox jews in this country trust more than others?

lol. this is actually a huge debate. there is no rule govering the use of kosher. each organization has its own symbol, which is why youll often see more than one symbol on a package. any company can put a K on their box, and that doesnt mean its kosher. a U with a circle around it is orthodox union, meaning it has been overseen by an american orthodox rabbi. a K with a circle or a triangle around it are different rabbis. in israel, each sect or area has its own rabbinical suppervision and its own symbol. some jews will eat all of them, some only the U, some with only a certain rabbis suppervision.

i would say in america, most religious jews eat the OU, or products shipped from israel. that is kind of the strictist level here.