UK Healthcare

[Captain Oates 911]

After that - I think that her coming to the UK was much harder than me going to the US - I am taking about national insurance number/tax people /driving licence/getting a bank account etc - I did it in the US and she did it here in the UK - so WE KNOW !!!!

Have to disagree with that. We have done it both ways and I doubt one way is anymore difficult than the other, both quite straightforward and easy just different.

The only part which stands out was getting her ILR stamp. We needed it for a trip back to the US and so had to go and apply in person. That day at Lunar House in 1998 still lives vividly in my memory. If we had just posted the forms of it would have been very easy.

Could be you are out of date somewhat... getting a UK bank account even with the UK 'green card' is not easy now - it took us three weeks to find a bank that would accept us and even now she does not have a debit card. We tried my bank originally - I have been there 25 years and keep £350k there - they rejected her for a basic checking account. . They see a debit card as extending credit because some are updated overnight and not real time. The NI number meant a long interview of over 1 hour and very many forms (I was with her) - and a tough interview- in the US I was literally 5 minutes at the local SS office. She has spent 2 weekends doing long tax forms about her arrival. I found the IRS very friendly and easy to deal with. The UK driving test is X times harder than any US tests - I did the US test in 10 minutes and it was pathetically easy. The examiner was staggered at my wonderful parallel parking - I am used to parking in Berlin and Paris and little market towns after which it is nothing to park a car on a really wide quiet road with huge parking gaps. Many people fail the UK test 5 times before they scrape through. I did mine in March 1965 and it was quite tough even then and lasts a LONG time.

Nope I maintain that the US is much easier to find one's feet with all that stuff.

Credit cards are a nightmare in both...health insurance/car insurance - horrible and the same to a newcomer - carolyn paid 850 gbp (1700 US) for her first car insurance (honda civic).

National Health in the UK ? I called my Doc today and said my left ear was bunged - they will not make an appointment until I have spent 2 weeks pouring olive oil into my ear !!! olive oil ? what am I some sort of Sicilian peasant who can't afford ear drops ? what if its infected ? hard luck- third world stuff.

I hated the US stuff when I first arrived and thought they were all bureaucratic idiots - but when I saw what carolyn went through in the UK I realised that I had had it easy...

and UK phone /internet companies ? absolute sharks - count your fingers if you shake hands with em. The US are bad but UK is worse.

anyway thats what I think - I know a LOT of things have changed since 911 so the UK is pretty hostile to newcomers now ... and whereas it was quite gentlemanly - now it's dog eat dog and then some.

Yes I was taken aback at all the problems carolyn hit when she arrived - and in retrospect i had it very easy in wisconsin...

I was there in 2005 and she arrived here October 2006.

ok UK green card is a piece of cake - a matter of minutes - even if you are a crazed terrorist - but thats a different story

[TracyTN 237]

Wow Alan - I'm surprised to hear you say a lot of that ! I remember your arrival in the US and how you thought it was all so terrible.

Kind of comforting that the UK is at least the same - or in most instances, worse!

[Captain Oates 911]

Wow Alan - I'm surprised to hear you say a lot of that ! I remember your arrival in the US and how you thought it was all so terrible.

Kind of comforting that the UK is at least the same - or in most instances, worse!

Travel broadens the mind - I am always learning and always ready to change my thoughts on something if it's the result of experience. Seeing an American doing it in reverse brings a whole new perspective.

Of course I am only talking about administrative affairs, so I will still find some aspects of the American culture that are not to my liking (like constant references to bottoms and the product of bottoms, and shoving things in bottoms). Even then, I think that as a 'guest' in America, I should save it for when I am talking with non - Americans in private.

I don't think that I should express a public opinion on anything while I am a 'guest' in America - and I should not fall into the trap of saying 'back home its like this' to everything I observe. I know there are many intelligent and broad minded, thinking people in America so I might let my guard down but only when I trust them.

If people ask, I will be careful not to say anything that could be seen as negative. My wife calls England a 'third world' country, and derides many aspects of it. She asked me if we celebrated 4th July and seemed sorry for us when I said we didn't.

A bit like if I was in the Sudan and I saw a 12 year old girl being mutilated by other women. As a visitor and a 'guest', I have no right to criticize that culture so I would just have to put cotton wool in my ears so I can't hear the screams.

My friend has been in the U.S. with his wife and 2 kids for 12 years - he said it was easy for him because he was a self confessed 'shallow' person and just wanted the sun and cheap cars and cheap gas and cheap speed boat. Perhaps there is a survival clue there.

[TracyTN 237]

Travel broadens the mind - I am always learning and always ready to change my thoughts on something if it's the result of experience. Seeing an American doing it in reverse brings a whole new perspective.

Of course I am only talking about administrative affairs, so I will still find some aspects of the American culture that are not to my liking (like constant references to bottoms and the product of bottoms, and shoving things in bottoms). Even then, I think that as a 'guest' in America, I should save it for when I am talking with non - Americans in private.

I don't think that I should express a public opinion on anything while I am a 'guest' in America - and I should not fall into the trap of saying 'back home its like this' to everything I observe. I know there are many intelligent and broad minded, thinking people in America so I might let my guard down but only when I trust them.

If people ask, I will be careful not to say anything that could be seen as negative. My wife calls England a 'third world' country, and derides many aspects of it. She asked me if we celebrated 4th July and seemed sorry for us when I said we didn't.

I don't think there's anything wrong w/ telling Americans if something in our culture is not to your liking. Its how you do it that is important. If my hubby says something like that, he says it more as an observation, not a criticism - because he knows I can't change it & its not my 'fault' (aside from the fact that I am likely to agree with his assessment!). Apart from that, it makes me view things with a completely new set of eyes - which is often a good thing.

I try my best to do the same when talking about things in England that I don't like. Except the NHS. Then its no holds barred for me.

I find the cultural differences very interesting and I am never opposed to hearing them. But as you said, I'm sure not all Americans are that way, so you'll just have to get to know them before going into it.

My hubby has also made a conscious effort not to say 'back home' when referring to England. He considers the US his home now, and is quite happy that it is. So he'll say 'back in England' instead. Mind you, I would not be offended if he DID say 'back home', as that is where he's from after all!!

[Captain Oates 911]

I don't think there's anything wrong w/ telling Americans if something in our culture is not to your liking. Its how you do it that is important. If my hubby says something like that, he says it more as an observation, not a criticism - because he knows I can't change it & its not my 'fault' (aside from the fact that I am likely to agree with his assessment!). Apart from that, it makes me view things with a completely new set of eyes - which is often a good thing.

I try my best to do the same when talking about things in England that I don't like. Except the NHS. Then its no holds barred for me.

I find the cultural differences very interesting and I am never opposed to hearing them. But as you said, I'm sure not all Americans are that way, so you'll just have to get to know them before going into it.

My hubby has also made a conscious effort not to say 'back home' when referring to England. He considers the US his home now, and is quite happy that it is. So he'll say 'back in England' instead. Mind you, I would not be offended if he DID say 'back home', as that is where he's from after all!!

TracyTN well well - sounds like you and I are on the same track ! The NHS is a mess - my mother was on a trolly in a corridor for 24 hours at age 90 - then they took the castors off and redesignated it 'a bed' thereby allowing tony blair to grin with target achieving success.

Yes I am going to follow your hubby's tactics and never say 'back home'. I am going to really burn my boats this time and by xmas, the U.S.A will be my permanent home.

I once read an article which said that the UK culture was far closer to any European country than the USA despite the language. I have been trying to explore that ever since because I am very interested in whether that is true. My wife claims to be 'very much a liberal' but her view on state supported single mothers etc is half the atlantic to the right of any UK or European politician. Most VJ people are very young people under 30 and they may have travelled, but they need another 30 years of living to put it all in context.

I think my wife will not be able to put her UK experience into context until we go back to the U.S. and she can chew it over.

Last weekend she was touching the cannon ball holes that Oliver Cromwell left in Stirling castle in 1651 and next week we will be revisiting the castle of alan the red, nephew of william the conqueror and built in 1080. On Monday we were in Glencoe and she saw mountain sights you can't see in Colorado even. I think she will remember seeing that depth of history and even miss it - a bit. Perhaps her memories of the UK will grow fonder.

We will see. I won't be allowed to immerse myself in the American culture fully as I wanted to buy a really big gun and kill some burglars and commies and people who won't co-operate with the next war - especially illegal immigrants who have not gone through this immigration process like me - but she won't let me. I also need a big gun to protect myself from the US government if it goes left wing, and the British re-colonisers apparently. I am getting naughty now so I will sign off

[TracyTN 237]

TracyTN well well - sounds like you and I are on the same track ! The NHS is a mess - my mother was on a trolly in a corridor for 24 hours at age 90 - then they took the castors off and redesignated it 'a bed' thereby allowing tony blair to grin with target achieving success.

Yes I am going to follow your hubby's tactics and never say 'back home'. I am going to really burn my boats this time and by xmas, the U.S.A will be my permanent home.

I once read an article which said that the UK culture was far closer to any European country than the USA despite the language. I have been trying to explore that ever since because I am very interested in whether that is true. My wife claims to be 'very much a liberal' but her view on state supported single mothers etc is half the atlantic to the right of any UK or European politician. Most VJ people are very young people under 30 and they may have travelled, but they need another 30 years of living to put it all in context.

I think my wife will not be able to put her UK experience into context until we go back to the U.S. and she can chew it over.

Last weekend she was touching the cannon ball holes that Oliver Cromwell left in Stirling castle in 1651 and next week we will be revisiting the castle of alan the red, nephew of william the conqueror and built in 1080. On Monday we were in Glencoe and she saw mountain sights you can't see in Colorado even. I think she will remember seeing that depth of history and even miss it - a bit. Perhaps her memories of the UK will grow fonder.

We will see. I won't be allowed to immerse myself in the American culture fully as I wanted to buy a really big gun and kill some burglars and commies and people who won't co-operate with the next war - especially illegal immigrants who have not gone through this immigration process like me - but she won't let me. I also need a big gun to protect myself from the US government if it goes left wing, and the British re-colonisers apparently. I am getting naughty now so I will sign off

Unfortunately, your mom's NHS experience doesn't surprise me one iota. My hubby nearly cut off two of his fingers w/ electric hedge trimmers (don't ask!) and it took them 3 days to even have a look at the damage he had done. That was after us sitting in hospital for two days solid in the height of summer, him with no food or water (in the event they deemed him worthy for surgery). I went on a rant at one point, reminding them that even prisoners of war must be given food and water every now and then...!

Not that the US system is perfect, but you can't fall off the floor.

I actually agree about the UK being more like Europe than the US. A common language doesn't always serve as the tie that binds.

I love the UK - probably for many of the same reasons as your wife. I find the history very intruiging and there is still SO much I have not seen. I would love to live there one day, but financially, I don't see it happening. Kind of sad, really.

Hey - at least you CAN defend yourself against burglers in this country (and not get charged with a crime yourself)...!

Have a good evening.

[featherB 1]

Unfortunately, your mom's NHS experience doesn't surprise me one iota. My hubby nearly cut off two of his fingers w/ electric hedge trimmers (don't ask!) and it took them 3 days to even have a look at the damage he had done. That was after us sitting in hospital for two days solid in the height of summer, him with no food or water (in the event they deemed him worthy for surgery).

... I couldn't even read to the end of this post without responding... because, remembering where you've said Chas is from... damn, this wasn't at bloody Wexham Park hospital, was it?!?! If so... that's where a friend of mine had her own finger-severing injury ignored for days a few years ago. The ignoring actually started at the Royal Berks, where she was left sitting there for 24 hours before someone finally had a look and confirmed exactly what the frigging paramedic had said the second he saw it - that she would need to go to Wexham Park (shame she was taken to the Royal Berks regardless, then) because they can deal with that stuff there... she was told she'd be taken there that same evening... later the following day, it turned out they hadn't quite got round to it and she was still holding a bandage round her finger in the Royal Berks (damn it, we could have taken her ourselves!!!)... finally they took her to Slough, then proceeded to ignore her for another day or so... at which point someone finally got a surgeon to have a look, and he promptly hit the roof at the fact that she'd been ignored so long, because by that point all they could do was amputate her finger - he was almost 100% sure that he could have saved it if she'd been sent to the right hospital in the first place and not just left with a dressing on there and a procession of medical students coming up, having a look, turning white, and disappearing never to be seen again. Sigh.

Sorry, rant over, but.... hmm, my own (personal) experiences of the NHS have been (for the most part) great, but that catalogue of total incompetence blew my mind!! Um, if you weren't talking about Wexham Park... ignore me!!

Um, carry on! Sorry, very very off topic, I apologise!!!

[Mags 112]

I worked for the NHS for 8 years and admit it does have it's faults. However, when I've ever used the NHS I've had nothing but great experiences. Low wait times, good treatment and nice staff.

It really DOES depend on the NHS Trust you end up living near, and some of them are appalling, but there are just as many that are good and giving a good service out there. Don't label the entire NHS under one nasty banner, because it isn't all like that. There are TONS of excellent staff out there who put their hearts and soul into their jobs and it is nice if they could get a bit of appreciation for what they do sometimes.

It gets a bit much when they are constantly had a go at when all they are doing is the best they can.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Mags

[featherB 1]

I worked for the NHS for 8 years and admit it does have it's faults. However, when I've ever used the NHS I've had nothing but great experiences. Low wait times, good treatment and nice staff.

It really DOES depend on the NHS Trust you end up living near, and some of them are appalling, but there are just as many that are good and giving a good service out there. Don't label the entire NHS under one nasty banner, because it isn't all like that. There are TONS of good staff out there who put their hearts and soul into their jobs and it is nice if they could get a bit of appreciation for what they do sometimes.

This is very true - and I myself have had nothing but VERY good experiences with the NHS (I mean, very, very, very)... I think I just saw red at the mention of finger-slicing injuries and the possible involvement of a certain hospital in Slough. That was caused by a total lack of communication (and extreme overworkedness), I think. But my own experiences... damn, I *love* the NHS. They have been nothing but wonderful to me - I'm normally the one going 'don't diss the NHS!'

[Captain Oates 911]

I worked for the NHS for 8 years and admit it does have it's faults. However, when I've ever used the NHS I've had nothing but great experiences. Low wait times, good treatment and nice staff.

It really DOES depend on the NHS Trust you end up living near, and some of them are appalling, but there are just as many that are good and giving a good service out there. Don't label the entire NHS under one nasty banner, because it isn't all like that. There are TONS of excellent staff out there who put their hearts and soul into their jobs and it is nice if they could get a bit of appreciation for what they do sometimes.

It gets a bit much when they are constantly had a go at when all they are doing is the best they can.

Mags we are getting a bit off topic and hi-jacking this thread which is a bit naughty of us - I am sure non of us are having a go at the front line staff - just the NHS system which is awful and the administrators who collude in the falsehoods by taking castors off trolleys in corridors so they are reported as beds etc...

Lions led by donkeys as they said in the first war.

You are right about areas - I went into Leeds casualty at 2.30pm and was told I could not be seen until 8.30pm so take a seat - I went outside and drove to Harrogate 15 minutes - good afternoon, come in, sit down , have a coffee, I will go and bring a doctor ! All done and out in 15 minutes !

NHS staff good - administrators and politicians bad

Anyway I am sat here with a deaf painful left ear (10 days now) and my doctor refuses to see me until a week on Friday (31st) at 1.30pm - they want to know I have been pouring olive oil into my ear for 'at least 2 weeks' before they will see me . I know it is infected and not wax blocked.

Reports of how it really is don't get much more real than that - it's real to me right now

[Mags 112]

I worked for the NHS for 8 years and admit it does have it's faults. However, when I've ever used the NHS I've had nothing but great experiences. Low wait times, good treatment and nice staff.

It really DOES depend on the NHS Trust you end up living near, and some of them are appalling, but there are just as many that are good and giving a good service out there. Don't label the entire NHS under one nasty banner, because it isn't all like that. There are TONS of good staff out there who put their hearts and soul into their jobs and it is nice if they could get a bit of appreciation for what they do sometimes.

This is very true - and I myself have had nothing but VERY good experiences with the NHS (I mean, very, very, very)... I think I just saw red at the mention of finger-slicing injuries and the possible involvement of a certain hospital in Slough. That was caused by a total lack of communication (and extreme overworkedness), I think. But my own experiences... damn, I *love* the NHS. They have been nothing but wonderful to me - I'm normally the one going 'don't diss the NHS!'

Yup, I totally agree.

If someone has had a bad experience, or they've had a family member suffer because of the way they were treated (or both), it can be hard to see the bigger picture. Simply because you don't have anything to weigh it up against, it's a biased approach, unfortunately. Then you have the UK newspapers weighing in with their four penneth and it is hard to see the positives.

If you want someone to blame, blame the Chief Executive of that particular NHS trust. He/she is the one responsible for all of it, he/she is the one responsible for the mis-management of funds, the down trodden attitude of many of the staff, the underfunding, the un-staffed positions, the closing down of beds etc.

On the good side, there are loads of 3 star hospitals and it is increasing all the time. These are hospitals where they are run really well and they DO exist. Just pisses me off that people ignore these places because it's easier to moan about the poorer ones.

*shrugs*

This post is in no way directed any anyone, incidentally. It is just MY moan about the way the NHS is given short shrift.

[Mags 112]

Mags we are getting a bit off topic and hi-jacking this thread which is a bit naughty of us

Good point, I've split it off as we were rather naughty...

Oh and I had no idea what to call it, so I just used "UK Healthcare" although "UK/USA differences" would probably be more appropriate upon looking back. But, it's done now so like it or lump it, can't change it!

Edited August 22, 2007 by Mags

[Fandango 1,440]

I worked for the NHS for 8 years and admit it does have it's faults. However, when I've ever used the NHS I've had nothing but great experiences. Low wait times, good treatment and nice staff.

It really DOES depend on the NHS Trust you end up living near, and some of them are appalling, but there are just as many that are good and giving a good service out there. Don't label the entire NHS under one nasty banner, because it isn't all like that. There are TONS of excellent staff out there who put their hearts and soul into their jobs and it is nice if they could get a bit of appreciation for what they do sometimes.

It gets a bit much when they are constantly had a go at when all they are doing is the best they can.

Agreed here as well

D has had nowt but good experiences with the NHS...his local GP was even wonderful to me the few times I needed a doctor over there...

[Fandango 1,440]

I was posting as you split it....so move my post too mags

[TracyTN 237]

I agree that Chas, saywhat's mom and featherb's friend's experiences don't paint a clear picture of everything. As we know, there ARE good trusts out there who provide an excellent service to the communities they serve. I suppose it is always the 'horror' stories that grab more attention.

It is shameful that said NHS chief executives don't make their trusts live up to that standard, however. Its too bad no one seems to have found a way to do that. Chas' family alone has complained time and again about their local trust - but to no avail (and surely they're not the only ones who have complained). I'm not sure what else it would take.

And yes feather, it WAS Wexham Park where Chas was. ####### ### place!! I'm not surprised by your friends' story - unfortunate as it is.

As Alan mentions - the other thing that puzzles me is how you can be required to wait for an appointment when you're ill. What's the point of having doctors if you can't see them when you're actually ill?