71% Favor Requiring Foreign Visitors to Carry Universal ID Card

[GaryC 7]

It's okay to use fear to get people to want a national ID card (the hordes are invading, the terrorists who managed to get student visas would have been foiled by an automatic card printed at the border) but not okay to point out the risks that go along with national databases?

The genie is already out of the bottle. We are identified by our SSN and DL number. Anyone can get mountains of information about you with those numbers already. Right this minute your actions can be tracked via the internet. We already have a national database with the IRS and the census. What are you afraid of?

[Caladan 19]

Separation of information, Gary. Right now my credit card purchases are separate from my exits and entrances into the country which are separate from my address and lease which are separate from my medical records, which are separate from whether I own a gun (you're for mandatory gun registration, right? so the government can tie that to your ID card and know who has the guns?), which are separate from my bank account.

If someone gets a hold of my credit card, I cancel it, and I don't have to worry that they've now gained access to my medical records. If a hacker swipes Amazon's accounts information, I can deal with it. Put all that information in one database and someone has a complete profile of me. It's hard to impersonate me if all you have is my credit card number. It's a lot easier if you have my social security number and complete profile.

"I'm sure they won't abuse their power" is not historically a reliable method.

[GaryC 7]

This is what happens when you have one unified database accessible by businesses.

We can do that already without a national database. If you have a SSN, a DL, if you use a credit card or pay taxes your already in the system. Gathering all that info into one place isn't going to change a thing.

[Heracles 417]

Societies that want to demand proof of citizenship from their residents historically don't have the best track record on civil liberties. I rather like the Bill of Rights, my rights as an American to think that the government works for me, not the other way around, and I like being able to wander down to the corner store without my ID to buy a soda. We are not supposed to trust the government to not abuse their power. "Don't worry, your husband is blond, he'll never get detained on the suspicion he's illegal" is not how I want my society run.

Fund ICE and let them do their jobs by enforcing the employment laws. You'll get all of the enforcement you need and I won't be violating the law by not pinning my ID to my clothing when I go for a run.

And how many people get asked for ID while going to buy a soda? That is an extreme and you know it..

I would like to see you try explaining your philosophy to the parents of the kids who where slaughtered in NJ?? Law and order is part of any civilized society. If Australians where suspected of committing crimes and being here illegally I would be more than happy to show them my ID, if requested.

Edited August 19, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Marilyn. 340]

This is what happens when you have one unified database accessible by businesses.

We can do that already without a national database. If you have a SSN, a DL, if you use a credit card or pay taxes your already in the system. Gathering all that info into one place isn't going to change a thing.

see Caladan's last post...

Societies that want to demand proof of citizenship from their residents historically don't have the best track record on civil liberties. I rather like the Bill of Rights, my rights as an American to think that the government works for me, not the other way around, and I like being able to wander down to the corner store without my ID to buy a soda. We are not supposed to trust the government to not abuse their power. "Don't worry, your husband is blond, he'll never get detained on the suspicion he's illegal" is not how I want my society run.

Fund ICE and let them do their jobs by enforcing the employment laws. You'll get all of the enforcement you need and I won't be violating the law by not pinning my ID to my clothing when I go for a run.

And how many people get asked for ID while going to buy a soda? That is an extreme and you know it..

I would like to see you try explaining your philosophy to the parents of the kids who where slaughtered in NJ?? Law and order is part of any civilized society. If Australians where suspected of committing crimes and being here illegally I would be more than happy to show them my ID, if requested.

if that person is Hispanic, they would probably be asked to show their ID...

crime happens regardless if the person is an illegal or not.... those people just happened to be illegal, it doesn't mean that all crime is committed just by illegals

Edited August 19, 2007 by MarilynP

[GaryC 7]

It looks like GB is already doing this. Good for them, we should follow suit.

Britain to use ID card database as national register

Public agencies will be able to use personal information submitted to database as part of compulsory ID card scheme.

By Andy McCue

Special to CNET News.com

Published: April 19, 2006, 12:20 PM PDT

The British government says its ID card database will become a national population register of basic personal information that its agencies can use to verify identity.

It has called for the development of a children's register as well.

The U.K. Treasury confirmed this week that the newly created Identity and Passport Service (IPS) will take over from the Office for National Statistics on work on the Citizen Information Project. The project is meant to create an adult population register containing a person's name, address, date of birth and a unique ID reference number.

"The IPS should be responsible for developing the national identity register as an adult population database. Over time, public sector systems, business processes and culture should be adapted to use the NIR as the definitive source of contact details in the longer term," Des Browne, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said in a statement to the U.K. parliament.

The British government's plan to introduce ID cards with biometric data has run into criticism from groups that oppose the creation of a national database of personal information. The House of Lords, the U.K. government's second chamber, put up resistance to an initial proposal that would have forced British citizens applying for a passport to also pay for an ID card and have their details added to the ID database. A compromise now allows people not to have to buy a card until 2010.

The NIR will only contain details of adults over the age of 16, but a national child population database could also be created.

Now on News.com

Goals lead to Dell cooking the books Lyrics sites out of tune with copyrights The Internet's new Dr. Spock? Extra: How to hack Starbucks

"The Department for Education and Skills should also consider whether there is scope to realize further efficiency and effectiveness benefits through a child population register," Browne said.

Until the NIR is up and running, the Treasury said, it should be a priority for Revenue and Customs, and the Department for Work and Pensions, to look at short-term arrangements for wider use of the National Insurance number, the equivalent of a Social Security number. The two government departments should also find ways to better share the personal information they hold.

"There is significant value to both citizens and the public sector in greater sharing of contact details--name, address, date of birth, reference numbers--in a secure way across the public sector," Browne said.

http://news.com.com/Britain+to+use+ID+card..._3-6062828.html

[Caladan 19]

Yes, it does. You did notice that when you filed AOS, you had to provide your own tax information and proof that you had filed, right? USCIS isn't allowed just to look up your information from the IRS. They wouldn't be allowed to get your information from your health care provider, either, for Luz's medical.

And yes, I think that the fourth amendment still applies, even if there are illegals wandering around. I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I invite everyone in when I shower, either.

[Heracles 417]

Oh yeah, big brother is coming to get you!! Using fear isn't exclusive to those that want to control the borders I see. Your already in thousands of databases and one unified one isn't going to make it any worse.

Funny how using it to protect a nation against terrorists is wrong while apparently okay when it comes to ID verification and enforcing the laws.

[mawilson 2,133]

This is what happens when you have one unified database accessible by businesses.

We can do that already without a national database. If you have a SSN, a DL, if you use a credit card or pay taxes your already in the system. Gathering all that info into one place isn't going to change a thing.

No, we can't do all that yet.

The credit bureaus use one system - the only SSN-based system that businesses are allowed to query.

The IRS use another system.

The DMV uses yet another system.

[Caladan 19]

Societies that want to demand proof of citizenship from their residents historically don't have the best track record on civil liberties. I rather like the Bill of Rights, my rights as an American to think that the government works for me, not the other way around, and I like being able to wander down to the corner store without my ID to buy a soda. We are not supposed to trust the government to not abuse their power. "Don't worry, your husband is blond, he'll never get detained on the suspicion he's illegal" is not how I want my society run.

Fund ICE and let them do their jobs by enforcing the employment laws. You'll get all of the enforcement you need and I won't be violating the law by not pinning my ID to my clothing when I go for a run.

And how many people get asked for ID while going to buy a soda? That is an extreme and you know it..

I would like to see you try explaining your philosophy to the parents of the kids who where slaughtered in NJ?? Law and order is part of any civilized society. If Australians where suspected of committing crimes and being here illegally I would be more than happy to show them my ID, if requested.

People have been arguing that the cops should be able to stop people, without probable cause, to determine their immigration status. That means they're advocating that people can be stopped at any time and that they must hand over their ID. Law and order is fine, but if a cop walks up to me while I'm minding my own business and demands my ID I'm perfectly within my rights to deny his request.

I feel bad for the parents of the kids who were shot but I don't think a cop sending an e-mail to ICE that there were some illegal kids on a corner would have prevented this crime, because ICE is so backed up that it would probably take six months for them to investigate the tip. The ID card wouldn't have prevented the crime.

[mawilson 2,133]

It looks like GB is already doing this. Good for them, we should follow suit.

No, Gary, not good for them. Very bad for them.

One of the reasons I am no longer in GB.

[GaryC 7]

Oh well shoot. The subject is moot. We are going to have it anyway. I forgot about the Real ID law. In 2 years we will have it. GOOD!!

Legislative history

The Real ID Act started off as H.R. 418, which passed the House[1] and went stagnant. It was then attached as a rider on a military spending bill (H.R. 1268) by Representative Chase Ostrander ® of Wisconsin (the author) and was voted 100-0[2]) . It was signed into public law on May 11, 2005[3].

On March 2, 2007, it was announced that enforcement of the Act would be postponed for two years[4]. The provisions of the bill will be delayed from going into effect until December 2009.

[edit] Minimum nationwide standards for state driver's licenses or ID cards, employment, and banking

In the United States, driver's licenses are issued by the states, not by the federal government. States also issue voluntary identification cards for non-drivers, and set the rules for what data is on the card and what documents must be provided to obtain one. States also maintain databases of licensed drivers and ID cardholders.

Driver's license implications

* The REAL ID Act's implications for driver's licenses and ID cards is detailed in Title II of the Act. Title II of REAL ID — “Improved Security for Driver’s License’ and Personal Identification Cards” — repeals the provisions of a December 2004 law that established a cooperative state-federal process to create federal standards for driver’s licenses and instead directly imposes prescriptive federal driver’s license standards.

The REAL ID Act Driver's License Summary[5] details the following provisions of the Act's driver's license title:

* Repeal of 9/11 Commission Implementation Act DL/ID Provisions

* Minimum Standards for Federal Use

* DL/ID Document Standards

* Minimum DL/ID Issuance Standards

* Verification of Documents

* Immigration Requirements

* Security and Fraud Prevention Standards

* Data Retention and Storage

* Linking of Databases

* Grants to States

* Authority

After December 31, 2009, "a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a state to any person unless the state is meeting the requirements" specified in the Real ID Act. States remain free to also issue non-complying licenses and IDs, so long as these have a unique design and a clear statement that they cannot be accepted for any Federal identification purpose. The federal Transportation Security Administration is responsible for security check-in at airports, so bearers of non-compliant documents would no longer be able to travel on common carrier aircraft without additional screening[6].

Employers would no longer be able to accept, or ultimately hire, bearers of non-compliant documents for employment[citation needed].

Financial institutions would require compliant documents from all customers[citation needed]. Bearers of non-compliant documents would be denied financial or banking services[citation needed].

The national license/ID standards cover:

* What data must be included on the card;

* What documentation must be presented before a card can be issued; and

* How the states must share their databases.

Strictly speaking, many of these requirements are not new. They replace similar language in Section 7212 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (Pub.L. 108-458), which had not yet gone into effect before being repealed by the Real ID Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

[Heracles 417]

Yes, it does. You did notice that when you filed AOS, you had to provide your own tax information and proof that you had filed, right? USCIS isn't allowed just to look up your information from the IRS. They wouldn't be allowed to get your information from your health care provider, either, for Luz's medical.

And yes, I think that the fourth amendment still applies, even if there are illegals wandering around. I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I invite everyone in when I shower, either.

There are ways around everything you mentioned anyway. What if the Canadian government did the monitoring for the US government. They are bound by no US laws or constitution or bill of rights..

If requested, someone should be able to verify their status in the US. Nothing to do with credit report access, information sharing, rights violations privacy etc.. Anyway, those items can be protected against by enacting laws such as the Federal privacy act in Australia.. http://www.privacy.gov.au/publications/ipps.html

Edited August 19, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[GaryC 7]

It looks like GB is already doing this. Good for them, we should follow suit.

No, Gary, not good for them. Very bad for them.

One of the reasons I am no longer in GB.

To bad you moved to get away from it. With the Real ID act going into effect in 2009 we will have it anyway.

[mawilson 2,133]

Oh well shoot. The subject is moot. We are going to have it anyway. I forgot about the Real ID law. In 2 years we will have it. GOOD!!

Real ID is bad enough, but it's not a National ID card -- it's just a national standard for state-issued DMV cards.

Fortunately, individual states can opt out.

To bad you moved to get away from it. With the Real ID act going into effect in 2009 we will have it anyway.

Not the same thing, really. Far from it.