Recognizng the signs

[mawilson 2,133]

On a side note, I'm not so sure that the 20-year-old Russian models/mail order brides are any easier to deal with than men from the Middle East/ North Africa!

Why? They can't leave you until they get their green cards, which (thanks to our government!)

takes forever, or at least 2-3 years. 3 years later, if they leave you, you order a new one.

[Caladan 19]

mawilson, that's an insulting way to put it. Is there a shortage of hot 20-year-olds in the U.S., or just of hot 20-year-olds that want to bother with a 50-year-old American man? Women aren't willfully importing abusers any more than men are willfully importing women using them for greencards. Long distance is a ######.

Abusers are often very charming. A high temper can be, because they're often passionate about other things. And desire can be easily confused for jealousy. And in some of the MENA cases, the early warning signs were waved away as cultural differences. And it's easy enough to do, especially if your knowledge of the culture is exoticized or filtered largely through TV & movies and there's a language barrier.

I think stina is making a lot of sense in this thread. A big difference might be how the culture reacts to abuse. Do they tell the girl to get out? Be submissive? Do you call your older brothers or do you call the cops?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I can sort of understand why a 50-year-old USC man would want to mail order a

20-year-old Russian model, but why on God's green earth would a USC woman

willfully import an abusive husband from the MENA?

Is there a shortage of abusive bastards here in the US?

Russia? Damn I should have studied Geography better.

[~Jackie~ 30]

I was one of the lucky ones. Mohammed never raised a hand to me.

Jackie

but gone ........is gone nonetheless

[mawilson 2,133]

mawilson, that's an insulting way to put it.

I apologise if I insulted anyone.

Is there a shortage of hot 20-year-olds in the U.S., or just of hot 20-year-olds that want to bother with a 50-year-old American man?

A bit of both, actually. Russia has more hot 20-year-olds per capita than the U.S.,

and a LOT more hot 20-year-olds that would LOVE to marry a 50-year-old American.

Women aren't willfully importing abusers any more than men are willfully importing women using them for greencards. Long distance is a ######.

I think many men realise they are being used for a greencard but do it anyway. It's worth it -

you get 3 years of free sex with a hottie for essentially nothing - a petition.

Edited August 16, 2007 by mawilson

[caybee 21]

I don't think anyone would WILLINGLY importing abusive spouses. Many abusive people can have very charming, attentive and seemingly "loving" personalities and hide their nasty sides for quite some time. Sure, there might be some "signs" of potentially abusive behavior, but women often put on their blinders when they are in love. And maybe people think that an undesirable behavior is just a difference in culture, so they rationalize it instead of running away.

On a side note, I'm not so sure that the 20-year-old Russian models/mail order brides are any easier to deal with than men from the Middle East/ North Africa!

Exactly.

SI2, welcome back.

It's true, some abusers are so charismatic they can hide their abusive nature from their spouse and from others in the community for long periods. Look at the cases where the spouse eventually lashes out at an abuser who was loved and respected by a community that had no idea what was going on. They are actors. Otherwise, they would be powerless.

[caybee 21]

Although it's not a rarity in the US, DV is still considered somewhat "shocking" here. How many times have we all heard stories about so and so and the abuse they endured? How many times did we all act surprised about this sort of behavior? In many areas of MENA this behavior is not shocking. It really is somewhat "normal". When I tell my husband of the different stories I've read on VJ about abuse by the hands of MENA men (Egyptian specifically) he says, that's "normal" in Egypt. Meaning...ppl tend to ignore these behaviors more often there and that the police most likely doesn't get involved. I'm sure not all areas of MENA consider this normal behavior but much of it does. That being said, just because it's considered more "normal" there doesn't mean it's acceptable.

My husband does not condone nor accept this sort of behavior. He's very adamently against it.

I agree that of course there isn't only one country that has problems with abuse and the US is definitely not immune to it, but this thread in the title says "culture or batterer".

While I don't totally agree with Boo-Yahs comment, partly he has a point. If some people in other threads were saying "in such and such country, it's more common for abuse to happen in this place or that place..." that means it might be more hush hush there and maybe the woman has less power to do anything about it. I could say the same about India where my SO is from, in the rural areas I am sure the women probably can't do much about it.

While it happens in the US, it is not the norm and is not acceptable in this society as far as the law goes, and most people here do not accept it as okay. So if someone is

coming from a country where there is more abuse going on and less punishment of abusers, then it should not be surprising, as Boo-Yah said, that things are viewed differently there. I better know my SO's opinion of abuse if he's coming from a country where it's not punished nearly as often.

How can you possibly say it's not the norm? Something that happens to 25% (reported only, what goes unreported?) of women is a HUGE number. Lots of things are illegal but are rampant.

The point of the MENA poll is to disprove the silly comments people are making about it being normal in MENA. Just because a few women want to tell themselves that to explain DV away, doesn't make it so.

My husband was shocked enough by a post yesterday that his response can't be printed here.

[Fandango 1,440]

I don't think anyone would WILLINGLY importing abusive spouses. Many abusive people can have very charming, attentive and seemingly "loving" personalities and hide their nasty sides for quite some time. Sure, there might be some "signs" of potentially abusive behavior, but women often put on their blinders when they are in love. And maybe people think that an undesirable behavior is just a difference in culture, so they rationalize it instead of running away.

On a side note, I'm not so sure that the 20-year-old Russian models/mail order brides are any easier to deal with than men from the Middle East/ North Africa!

But therein lies the rub with an ldr where partners meet online....one can hide one's 'true persona' quite well....and not only that, but sometimes it could be easy to romanticize the unknown bits....like how many times do we see threads 'oh such and such wasn't was (s)he portrayed his/herself to be....

Not saying anything categorically, mind you...there are loads that work out, and loads that don't....

I agree that of course there isn't only one country that has problems with abuse and the US is definitely not immune to it, but this thread in the title says "culture or batterer".

While I don't totally agree with Boo-Yahs comment, partly he has a point. If some people in other threads were saying "in such and such country, it's more common for abuse to happen in this place or that place..." that means it might be more hush hush there and maybe the woman has less power to do anything about it. I could say the same about India where my SO is from, in the rural areas I am sure the women probably can't do much about it.

While it happens in the US, it is not the norm and is not acceptable in this society as far as the law goes, and most people here do not accept it as okay. So if someone is coming from a country where there is more abuse going on and less punishment of abusers, then it should not be surprising, as Boo-Yah said, that things are viewed differently there. I better know my SO's opinion of abuse if he's coming from a country where it's not punished nearly as often.

How can you possibly say it's not the norm? Something that happens to 25% of women is a HUGE number. Lots of things are illegal but are rampant.

If all the abuse was reported, things could be done about it. Such as the case of Secret_Identity, who dropped the charges after getting him to court. So I don't think it's the norm when there are laws to protect women from it. Whether they take advantage of the laws or not is the issue. In some countries(or in areas of a country), the women don't even have the chance to take the man to court. And why is because it's more of the norm there and the gov't is maybe less concerned about their situations. It's a big difference to me. One is a place where you have the choice to leave and press charges and expect something might be done about it, and the other is a place where you may not be able to do anything about it.

So do you know anything about domestic violence laws in MENA? Because your assertions here are plain wrong. And whether or not a woman presses charges has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she experiences abuse. You agreed with BooYah that it is more prevalent in MENA. Your assertion is incorrect and has nothing to do with what is or isn't illegal.

I gotta ask this...and forgive my ignorance...but the only true way out of ignorance is to learn, which is what I attempt to do here by asking....what ARE the dv MENA laws? I really don't know too much, but there seems to be conflicting info around when there are still things such as 'honor' killings and whatnot...

As far as the poll, it's quite skewed because it cannot give an accurate comparison to the seperate regions....the high DV rate amongst US relationships could just mean that more victims of DV found their new SO online....that could be indicative itself of forming an emotional bond with someone where it's physically impossible to fall prey to more abuse. Like using the net as a barrier.

Edited August 16, 2007 by LisaD

[chri'stina 190]

I agree that of course there isn't only one country that has problems with abuse and the US is definitely not immune to it, but this thread in the title says "culture or batterer".

While I don't totally agree with Boo-Yahs comment, partly he has a point. If some people in other threads were saying "in such and such country, it's more common for abuse to happen in this place or that place..." that means it might be more hush hush there and maybe the woman has less power to do anything about it. I could say the same about India where my SO is from, in the rural areas I am sure the women probably can't do much about it.

While it happens in the US, it is not the norm and is not acceptable in this society as far as the law goes, and most people here do not accept it as okay. So if someone is coming from a country where there is more abuse going on and less punishment of abusers, then it should not be surprising, as Boo-Yah said, that things are viewed differently there. I better know my SO's opinion of abuse if he's coming from a country where it's not punished nearly as often.

How can you possibly say it's not the norm? Something that happens to 25% of women is a HUGE number. Lots of things are illegal but are rampant.

If all the abuse was reported, things could be done about it. Such as the case of Secret_Identity, who dropped the charges after getting him to court. So I don't think it's the norm when there are laws to protect women from it. Whether they take advantage of the laws or not is the issue. In some countries(or in areas of a country), the women don't even have the chance to take the man to court. And why is because it's more of the norm there and the gov't is maybe less concerned about their situations. It's a big difference to me. One is a place where you have the choice to leave and press charges and expect something might be done about it, and the other is a place where you may not be able to do anything about it.

So do you know anything about domestic violence laws in MENA? Because your assertions here are plain wrong. And whether or not a woman presses charges has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she experiences abuse. You agreed with BooYah that it is more prevalent in MENA. Your assertion is incorrect and has nothing to do with what is or isn't illegal.

If you are trying to say that it is not more prevalent in some MENA countries, I am not convinced at all. If you know more about the laws then I'd also like to learn more as Lisa asked also. But I have read, and I don't know if I will get the comment about sources if they don't agree with some ppl's views, but there is some info here from Human Rights Watch

http://hrw.org/women/overview-mena.html

Also from http://www.vitalvoices.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?page_id=376:

"Domestic violence is prevalent throughout both the Middle East and North Africa. In many of the other countries, there are no laws that specifically address the issue of domestic violence. According to a 2003 survey by the Centre for Egyptian Women’s Legal Affairs, an estimated sixty-seven percent of Egyptian women living in urban areas and thirty percent of women in rural areas had experienced a form of domestic violence at least once during 2002 through 2003. In Jordan, although domestic violence is technically grounds for divorce, an acceptable legal defense for a husband is that he has the authority to abuse his wife if he can prove she was disobedient. Across the board, the percentage of women who report domestic violence abuse is very small and the laws remain lenient towards men with to crimes committed against their wives."

So are they making it up?

I am not trying to say that all men in MENA abuse, which I'm sure you understand from my words. But to say it's not more prevalent there does not seem true. I'd say it's also more prevalent in India, not a MENA country, but a country still having gender problems.

Edited August 16, 2007 by stina&suj

[Ban Hammer 13,619]

an estimated sixty-seven percent of Egyptian women living in urban areas and thirty percent of women in rural areas had experienced a form of domestic violence at least once during 2002 through 2003.

wow!

[Fandango 1,440]

I'd actually also like to know about the divorce laws in MENA and how life is for a divorced woman over there...anyone?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I'd actually also like to know about the divorce laws in MENA and how life is for a divorced woman over there...anyone?

This is an extremely broad question. ME/NA is a big big place, with many different countries. Each one has its own legal system, which may not be the same as its neighbors. There are vast differences in traditions, opportunities and options between different countries and especially between various socio-economic groups, even within the very same city.

But you could easily look up specific info for yourself on the net, by typing in each country along with "divorce laws."

Aside -- Why is there such a tendency to lump all ME/NA countries together as "over there" (or even the people as "them" ?) My god these are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF INDIVIDUALS living in DOZENS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

*sigh*

[Fandango 1,440]

I'd actually also like to know about the divorce laws in MENA and how life is for a divorced woman over there...anyone?

This is an extremely broad question. ME/NA is a big big place, with many different countries. Each one has its own legal system, which may not be the same as its neighbors. There are vast differences in traditions, opportunities and options between different countries and especially between various socio-economic groups, even within the very same city.

But you could easily look up specific info for yourself on the net, by typing in each country along with "divorce laws."

Aside -- Why is there such a tendency to lump all ME/NA countries together as "over there" (or even the people as "them" ?) My god these are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF INDIVIDUALS living in DOZENS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

*sigh*

So what's life like for a divorced woman in your SO's country, wom?

for the aside......

'over there' cos it's not here! I'd say that when talking about ANY country not America. COS IT'S THERE. *points*

Secondly....I most certainly can google...but we're all having a great dialogue. Enlighten us with what google cannot...share your experiences. I think this is a great conversation! Let's keep it on track!

[doodlebug 3]

This thread was supposed to be a helpful thread for women/men who may not know the signs for abuse. Could a moderator please split the whole mena discussion off perhaps? I feel it's really taking away from the purpose of the discussion.

[Peggy 1]

Women do not stay in an abusive relationship becasue they are afraid to be alone. That is far from the truth.

Most abusive women stay out of FEAR

Most abusive men are NUTS in the head and a woman has to be careful when she is in that situation. I lived that abusive life with my ex husband. I know the fear that comes with that. It is very scaring especially if you have children. They think they are the c&ck of the walk on this earth and they are nothing but abusive b@stards in my books. Gutless pieces of scum when they have to treat a women like that. Especially when they say they love you. Bull #######. They are COWARDS.

Can you tell I hate abusive men.

First there is the romance then the abuse starts, then their sorry for doing it. Then they go into whats called the "Honeymoon Stage" where they suck up to you for awhile. Then when they think your over it. They strike again. The pattern just keeps repeating itself until the women gets the courage and self confidence to leave. Its hard and a BIG step. Everyone does it in their own time. Some women never leave

I pray that all the women on here that are getting abused to find the strenght to even pick up the phone and call a womens shelter. They are there to help you and keep you safe. They are wonderful even just to talk to and release your fears. I know it helped me alot. Abuse is no life for anyone.