The hadith is not islam!

[Alhamdulillah 0]

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been posted already:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (4:59)

Say: "Obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allahs Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messengers duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)." (24:54)

And perform AsSalat (prayer), and give Zakat (charity) and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may receive mercy (from Allah). (24:56)

O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW) and render not vain your deeds. (47:33)

Obey Allah, and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW), but if you turn away, then the duty of Our Messenger is only to convey (the Message) clearly. (64:12)

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (4:59)

...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is severe in punishment.(59:7)

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

I imagine it must be hard to obey the messenger (salallahu alayhi wa salaam) or refer matters to him if you reject everything he ever said or did.

Also:

And We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou may explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. (16:44)

If he was supposed to explain the Quran to us then how is that supposed to happen now that he's gone if we reject his sayings and actions (ahadith)?

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (33:36)

[The_dip_sticks 0]

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been posted already:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (4:59)

Say: "Obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allahs Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messengers duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)." (24:54)

And perform AsSalat (prayer), and give Zakat (charity) and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may receive mercy (from Allah). (24:56)

O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW) and render not vain your deeds. (47:33)

Obey Allah, and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW), but if you turn away, then the duty of Our Messenger is only to convey (the Message) clearly. (64:12)

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (4:59)

...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is severe in punishment.(59:7)

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

I imagine it must be hard to obey the messenger (salallahu alayhi wa salaam) or refer matters to him if you reject everything he ever said or did.

Also:

And We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou may explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. (16:44)

If he was supposed to explain the Quran to us then how is that supposed to happen now that he's gone if we reject his sayings and actions (ahadith)?

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (33:36)

Thanks for the response, at first glance it can look quite convincing the quotes you pasted from the holy Quran. But let us STUDY the Quran as it’s meant to be studied as a whole rather than bits and bobs.

As a muslim and a believer in the Quran as God’s word I have to take into account all that you have pasted but let’s take a closer look at what the prophet Muhammed’s real purpose was and his boundries i.e what he can and cannot say. This way we can get closer to the conclusion of your quotes.

This first one pretty much sums it all up but we will continue with others to give you further meat to chew on:

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 69:43-47

It’s quite clearly stating that had he uttered any other teachings he would have been punished. So in conclusion he had absolutely no authority to say anything other than what’s in the Quran. So yes let’s obey the messenger and STUDY the Quran.

But let’s further look at the prophet muhammed’s role, in these quotes we can see what his use was by God:

"You have NO duty EXCEPT DELIVERING the message." 42:48

"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivery of the message." 5:99

"We have not sent any messenger except to be obeyed by God's will." 4:64

No duty except deliver the message, So what EXACTLY is this message that is so emphasized by God for the prophet. Let’s examine:

"We have sent down to you a scripture containing YOUR MESSAGE. Do you not understand?" 21:10

As we can clearly see the MESSAGE is the Quran. It also states as “YOUR MESSAGE” meaning it is a communication between one soul and God, not Imams and so called religious leaders,.

Further we can see in the next quote what he is allowed to UTTER.

"This is the utterance of an honorable messenger. Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe. Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed. A revelation from the Lord of the universe. HAD HE UTTERED ANYOTHER TEACHINGS We would have stopped the revelations to him." [69:40-46]

As you can see in the above quote, the Quran clearly states that he was FORBIDDEN to utter any other teachings.

Now you may argue rather than utter other than the Quran you follow him as to EXPLAIN the Quran to us. Well let’s see what the Quran says to that:

"Do not move your tongue to hasten it. It is we who will collect it into Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran. Then it is WE who will explain it." 75:16-19

As you can see in the above quote the prophet Muhammed DOES NOT EVEN HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO EXPLAIN THE QURAN. It makes you wonder why people EVEN go to so called religious leaders and so called scholars, the Quran is telling us that the message is between one soul and God and is no ones business other than that, if even the prophet Muhammed is not allowed to explain it to us who are the scholars trying to fool???... So who does explain the Quran?... the next quote reveals:

"The Most Gracious. Teacher of the Quran." 55:1-2

Yes it is up to us to just study the Quran and it is God who teaches us as again emphasized in the next quotes:

[73:1] O you cloaked one.

[73:2] Meditate during the night, except rarely.

[73:3] Half of it, or a little less.

[73:4] Or a little more. And read the Quran from cover to cover.

[73:5] We will give you a heavy message.

God has told us he will teach us and give us the message as above.

"....you will find no substitute for the Sunna (system) of God." 33:62

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

"You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23)

From the above quotes seems like God is warning us not to look for other Sunnah (SYSTEM) other than God’s and what is God’s Sunnah (SYSTEM) …. QURAN!!!

Show me in the Quran where God has said follow Muhammed’s Sunnah????... there is no such thing because Muhammed has no sunnah he only follows God’s as we are SUPPOSED to.

So in conclusion yes you are right to paste your quotes but to follow the messenger is to follow the Quran as he was only ALLOWED to…. Simple!

If you still insist on following MAN MADE fabrications than read what’s in the HADITH itself and the most reliable SAHIH MUSLIM:

(The Prophet said, "Do not write down anything from me except the Quran." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Muslim]

PEACE

Adiel (Mireya’s Hubby)

[peezey 0]

I certainly don't agree with anything the salafist Alhamdulilah has to say, but Adiel, you are posting from submission.org which is just complete and utter #######. You should make your argument from intellectually reliable and honest sources.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

I certainly don't agree with anything the salafist Alhamdulilah has to say, but Adiel, you are posting from submission.org which is just complete and utter #######. You should make your argument from intellectually reliable and honest sources.

Hi,

Thanks for the response, I am pasting Quranic quotes from a number of webites as I dont know the Quran by heart and would have to read it cover to cover to find the quotes im looking for. There are MANY websites that have the information at hand for me to use. I dont follow submission.org per say as they STILL pray the same way as HADITH!!! even though they claim to be Quran only and also they follow the code 19 nonsense and are support spinless idiots like Daniel pipes at the same time there are things I do agree with them on i.e what I said in my last response, and they do have Quranic quotes at hand which I can use instantly to make my arguments. Infact there are a number of sources I would use depending on the question at hand. I have to use sources to take the Quranic quotes because it would take me a whole week perhaps to make an argument otherwise, I dont have the time nor would I be bothered as im not here to change peoples beliefs systems. Also I would never use quotes which have not been verified by me or which to I dont believe in If you bother to look at other responses I have done you will see the Quranic quotes I used have nothing to do with submission.org But not agreeing with some one does not make them wrong, who are we to judge, it's just their way. I dont agree with 95% of muslims as they follow hadith but does it make them wrong??. I dont think so even my mum follows hadith hardcore wahibi!!!. End of the day the point is there is one God and he will judge us all. So to say its complete and utter ####### as you put it would be biggotry in my opinion and I can give you a good run for your money for and against them in an argument.

The point of my blog initialy was never to change peoples belief's systems but rather give them another angle to look at Islam.

My point of view on it agrees and disagrees with many sites. the parts I agree with I will keep the parts I do not I will scrap. This is my communication with God.

I believe that the Quran talks to each soul individualy and personaly and I dont believe that God's system is in a militiry fashion but rather flexible and unique within certain rules and nor do I believe Islam must be followed one way like the hadithists or even the submission.orgists, try telling that to submission.org!

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

[Alhamdulillah 0]

I certainly don't agree with anything the salafist Alhamdulilah has to say,

There is no need for name calling.

[mybackpages 0]

I certainly don't agree with anything the salafist Alhamdulilah has to say,

There is no need for name calling.

Which term do you prefer? Muwahidoon? You can call it whatever you want, it still all the same stuff.

[amal 4]

I haven't read this whole thread as I have just gotten home from work and am in the middle of fixing supper BUT I just wanted to say 1 thing. I, personally, believe that if a person is practicing Islam with the purest of intentions in their hearts, they are doing the right thing. If they are following hadith, what does that hurt if they have pure intentions with it? If they aren't following hadith and have pure intentions inside themselves that what they are doing is right, what does that hurt? I'm just trying to say that it is between the person and God only. Only God knows a persons pure intent hadith or not.

just my 2 cents worth

amal

ps ~ I hope this didn't ruffle any feathers and that it wasn't way off topic (I'll try to read the whole thread later when I have time)

[doodlebug 3]

ps ~ I hope this didn't ruffle any feathers and that it wasn't way off topic (I'll try to read the whole thread later when I have time)

you mean like this?

[coolred38 0]

Salam to all

Im new here and found this particular thread interesting. Ive always wondered why people who ask the question..."without hadith how would you know how to pray"....or..."where do you learn how to pray in the Quran" etc.

Here's my question about that...if a new Muslim comes up to you and says...hello(salam) Im a new Muslim but I dont know how to pray...what should I do? Do you....tell him to go read hadith and everything he needs to know will be there clear and precise....or do you tell him to watch you and do what you do?

For those that love hadith so well it might come as a surprise to know that learning how to pray based on hadeeth will not get you much knowledge...there is no hadith that says...first the prophet did wudu, then he stood and recited al Fatiha, then he ......until he finished by saying salamaliekum first to the right and then to the left....there is no hadith that says that....and to tell the truth if you put all the hadith that do mention prayer all together you might barely get a coherent idea of what your prayer should consist of and what you should say. Nobody learns how to pray based on hadith so why use that argument? Even the prophet said..."pray as you SEE me pray."

We teach our children to pray by example...we make them stand beside us....teach them the ritual through practice....little toddlers feel sooo important when they toddle up and bow their heads to the floor emulating mommy or daddy....hadith is never even mentioned when prayers are being learned...tell me Im wrong.

The basic fact is that we dont use hadeeth to learn to pray...we learn prayer through visually watching other Muslims...thats the way its been since our prophet and thats the way it will always be....unless several generations of Muslims stop praying completely until the act is so forgotten that someone might need to go searching back through hadeeth to remind us what the pray is and sort of how you do it.....just a thought.

I dont mean any disrespect to you long timers but I thought I would just throw that out there for consideration. Have a nice day.

[Alhamdulillah 0]

Which term do you prefer?

Muslim

O you who believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former; nor let (some) women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former, nor defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. How bad is it, to insult ones brother after having Faith. And whosoever does not repent, then such are indeed Zalimoon (wrong-doers, etc.). (49:11)

Edited August 28, 2007 by Alhamdulillah

[doodlebug 3]

Salam to all

Im new here and found this particular thread interesting. Ive always wondered why people who ask the question..."without hadith how would you know how to pray"....or..."where do you learn how to pray in the Quran" etc.

Here's my question about that...if a new Muslim comes up to you and says...hello(salam) Im a new Muslim but I dont know how to pray...what should I do? Do you....tell him to go read hadith and everything he needs to know will be there clear and precise....or do you tell him to watch you and do what you do?

For those that love hadith so well it might come as a surprise to know that learning how to pray based on hadeeth will not get you much knowledge...there is no hadith that says...first the prophet did wudu, then he stood and recited al Fatiha, then he ......until he finished by saying salamaliekum first to the right and then to the left....there is no hadith that says that....and to tell the truth if you put all the hadith that do mention prayer all together you might barely get a coherent idea of what your prayer should consist of and what you should say. Nobody learns how to pray based on hadith so why use that argument? Even the prophet said..."pray as you SEE me pray."

We teach our children to pray by example...we make them stand beside us....teach them the ritual through practice....little toddlers feel sooo important when they toddle up and bow their heads to the floor emulating mommy or daddy....hadith is never even mentioned when prayers are being learned...tell me Im wrong.

The basic fact is that we dont use hadeeth to learn to pray...we learn prayer through visually watching other Muslims...thats the way its been since our prophet and thats the way it will always be....unless several generations of Muslims stop praying completely until the act is so forgotten that someone might need to go searching back through hadeeth to remind us what the pray is and sort of how you do it.....just a thought.

I dont mean any disrespect to you long timers but I thought I would just throw that out there for consideration. Have a nice day.

The argument was that you cannot just hand someone a quran and then whammo they know how to pray.

Hmm.....you sound VERY familiar to me.

[coolred38 0]

Doodlebug

I understand about the argument...I was just commenting on the "we use hadeeth to learn to pray" aspect that always creeps into why hadeeth are so important.

Do I sound familiar? Ive never been to this site before yesterday....I hope by familiarity you mean something good by that...I would hate to be the bearer of "bad feelings" from some previous poster. have a nice day

[doodlebug 3]

Doodlebug

I understand about the argument...I was just commenting on the "we use hadeeth to learn to pray" aspect that always creeps into why hadeeth are so important.

Do I sound familiar? Ive never been to this site before yesterday....I hope by familiarity you mean something good by that...I would hate to be the bearer of "bad feelings" from some previous poster. have a nice day

That's cool. You might wanna refrain from the eyerolls though if you're trying to not bear bad feelings. I don't know where you're from but around these parts it's pretty sarcastic especially when you're responding directly to someone's argument. Just not a great way to start yourself off on a forum.

[Ban Hammer 13,283]

Doodlebug

I understand about the argument...I was just commenting on the "we use hadeeth to learn to pray" aspect that always creeps into why hadeeth are so important.

Do I sound familiar? Ive never been to this site before yesterday....I hope by familiarity you mean something good by that...I would hate to be the bearer of "bad feelings" from some previous poster. have a nice day

That's cool. You might wanna refrain from the eyerolls though if you're trying to not bear bad feelings. I don't know where you're from but around these parts it's pretty sarcastic especially when you're responding directly to someone's argument. Just not a great way to start yourself off on a forum.

[coolred38 0]

If you are referring to the cartoon face as "eye rolls" then dont take it too personal....that wasnt meant sarcastically...I thought he was just smiling....no harm meant.

Im american btw....currently living in the Middle East (for 20 years actually)

Since I got off on the "wrong foot' it seems I will switch to the other foot.....and try to come across as more helpful and interesting and less sarcastic....Insha Allah. take care