The hadith is not islam!

[Nasturtium 500]

But that is what I meant by putting in the Council of Nicea in there though. I'm far from a scholar so I really don't have the background to argue all the points but from what I have read and studied, the bible was constructed in a very political fashion, notsomuch depending on what people TRULY thought was heresy or not but what politically may have been damaging to those in power.

At any rate another argument for corruption can be found just by looking at the many many many versions of the bible that are out there. I have no idea how many to date but each one has a different translation which gives a different meaning.

The thing is none of the authors of the 4 gospels WERE eyewitnesses to the crucifixion, so it's not just I saw this but he saw that...no one actually "saw" anything that wrote about it.

A lot of the verses that are in the gospel of Q pretty much mirror what is said in the Quran.

(Hope you don't mind-- I'm at work with a lot of people milling around and so I blobbed your quote kind of down, sorry!)

My basic deal with CoN is that it shows selection not corruption.. they merely chose which books-- they did not alter the books themselves.

The version thing always kind of makes me wonder. They are translations. All of the newest "versions" are translations from original texts which have to go passed a board. The older versions, such as KJV, are translations of translations generally, and that is never a good thing.. KJV also contains a lot of insertions which are removed in current translations. Versions also contain different commentaries and whatnot.. so it's not that the they say different things with different meanings, it's that they are different translations and different commentaries.

My eyewitness thing is not to say they were the actual eyewitnesses, but that they are supposed to be eyewitness accounts written down.. and that was my point

So out of curiosity, how do Muslims in general reconcile their holidays and such in the Qu'ran since they kind of pop into existence? Is it that the holiday celebrations were "lost" at some point? I have always wondered that!

[peezey 0]

My basic deal with CoN is that it shows selection not corruption.. they merely chose which books-- they did not alter the books themselves.

The version thing always kind of makes me wonder. They are translations. All of the newest "versions" are translations from original texts which have to go passed a board. The older versions, such as KJV, are translations of translations generally, and that is never a good thing.. KJV also contains a lot of insertions which are removed in current translations. Versions also contain different commentaries and whatnot.. so it's not that the they say different things with different meanings, it's that they are different translations and different commentaries.

My eyewitness thing is not to say they were the actual eyewitnesses, but that they are supposed to be eyewitness accounts written down.. and that was my point

So out of curiosity, how do Muslims in general reconcile their holidays and such in the Qu'ran since they kind of pop into existence? Is it that the holiday celebrations were "lost" at some point? I have always wondered that!

I just totally disagree that selection of books and the intentions behind the selection does not equal corruption. But I'm not sure we'd convince each other otherwise on that one.

Can you elaborate on the holidays question? I don't know what you mean.

[doodlebug 3]

So out of curiosity, how do Muslims in general reconcile their holidays and such in the Qu'ran since they kind of pop into existence? Is it that the holiday celebrations were "lost" at some point? I have always wondered that!

I'm not good enough to answer that one!

Would be nice if the OP came back since he's the one who started this thread.

[mybackpages 0]

Corruption of the original text of the bible came about with translation not just selection. Anyone have a copy of the original text? Scholars do a lot of research in trying to put back together as much of the original text as they can, but tis just not possible because it has been touched by so many hands over time. The Quran has not changed.

[Nasturtium 500]

Peezy-- I totally agree with you.. in that I see your point (selection is in a way making it say what you want) but my point was that they selected yes but did not change the texts of the books they chose. Anyway, 100% agree we will never convince each other of the other side!

My question about the holidays and random things I cannot get my husband to answer (and that I don't necessarily trust online sources for)... I just went looking and think I answered Ramadan myself-- so it's established as the month when the Qu'ran was revealed? So then this would leave Muslims believing there was only one holiday before the Qu'ran? And as far as pilgrimage to the kaabah, is it accepted as being instituted with Mohammed? Because I have seen a lot of claims that it was built by Adam, which would sort of indicate it should have been there for quite some time...

[Nasturtium 500]

Corruption of the original text of the bible came about with translation not just selection. Anyone have a copy of the original text? Scholars do a lot of research in trying to put back together as much of the original text as they can, but tis just not possible because it has been touched by so many hands over time. The Quran has not changed.

But unless you have a copy of the original text to judge it against, how can you say it is corrupted over time because it was touched by so many hands? In order to claim corruption, you must have an uncorrupted version against which to judge. The Qu'ran is newer than the texts we have for the torah and the injeel, so I don't see how it could be used as a comparison. There are many things which were written down as original sources which haven't changed-- for which we possess the originals-- such as the writings of Augustine. Does that give them authority over the Qu'ran?

[The dip sticks 0]

For those of you who do not follow any of the hadiths, how do you know the correct way to pray?

Allah, the God says in 6:38 that HE did not leave out anything out of Qur'an. Salaat and the other rituals of Islam are not mentioned in Hadiths and Sunna as well. Pr. Mohammed followed the same Contact prayer that Pr. Abraham did yeara before.

The Quran proclaims that the Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114, 115; 50:45), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam, (submisssion).

The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed and should therefore be the only source of religious laws and guidance. The true obedience of prophet Muhammad is only by obeying the Quran, which is indeed a narration through the Prophet. Thus the Quran is the only true and proven Hadith from prophet Muhammad.

This principle is confirmed by the Quran's mathematical code. Verse 46 of Surat 17 proclaims that we shall uphold the Quran ALONE. The word "ALONE" occurs in the Quran 6 times: 7:70, 17:46, 39:45, 40: 12 & 84, and 60:4. All these occurrences refer to God, except 17:46. When we add the numbers of suras and verses which refer to "GOD ALONE," we get 361, 19x19. This proves that 17:46 refers to "the Quran ALONE.

Ok...so where in the Quran does it tell you how many rakats at which prayer time? I've read the Quran three times from front to back so not too much but never have I seen such specifics. I've seen in the Quran when to pray but not exactly how. What surah tells me exactly what to say at what prayer time and when to prostrate during the salat, etc? I was taught that the Quran tells me to follow what the Prophet Mohammed, pbuh, does and that by doing so his companions learned the proper way to pray.

the times and way to pray and words are all in the quran.

[doodlebug 3]

For those of you who do not follow any of the hadiths, how do you know the correct way to pray?

Allah, the God says in 6:38 that HE did not leave out anything out of Qur'an. Salaat and the other rituals of Islam are not mentioned in Hadiths and Sunna as well. Pr. Mohammed followed the same Contact prayer that Pr. Abraham did yeara before.

The Quran proclaims that the Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114, 115; 50:45), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam, (submisssion).

The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed and should therefore be the only source of religious laws and guidance. The true obedience of prophet Muhammad is only by obeying the Quran, which is indeed a narration through the Prophet. Thus the Quran is the only true and proven Hadith from prophet Muhammad.

This principle is confirmed by the Quran's mathematical code. Verse 46 of Surat 17 proclaims that we shall uphold the Quran ALONE. The word "ALONE" occurs in the Quran 6 times: 7:70, 17:46, 39:45, 40: 12 & 84, and 60:4. All these occurrences refer to God, except 17:46. When we add the numbers of suras and verses which refer to "GOD ALONE," we get 361, 19x19. This proves that 17:46 refers to "the Quran ALONE.

Ok...so where in the Quran does it tell you how many rakats at which prayer time? I've read the Quran three times from front to back so not too much but never have I seen such specifics. I've seen in the Quran when to pray but not exactly how. What surah tells me exactly what to say at what prayer time and when to prostrate during the salat, etc? I was taught that the Quran tells me to follow what the Prophet Mohammed, pbuh, does and that by doing so his companions learned the proper way to pray.

the times and way to pray and words are all in the quran.

I know that is what you are telling me and I am asking you to please show me what surahs tell me how many rakats for each salat and when to prostrate during my salats please.

I can say everything is in the Quran too but without exact quotes proving your point it's just typing on a screen.

[Caladan 19]

My basic deal with CoN is that it shows selection not corruption.. they merely chose which books-- they did not alter the books themselves.

The version thing always kind of makes me wonder. They are translations. All of the newest "versions" are translations from original texts which have to go passed a board. The older versions, such as KJV, are translations of translations generally, and that is never a good thing.. KJV also contains a lot of insertions which are removed in current translations. Versions also contain different commentaries and whatnot.. so it's not that the they say different things with different meanings, it's that they are different translations and different commentaries.

My eyewitness thing is not to say they were the actual eyewitnesses, but that they are supposed to be eyewitness accounts written down.. and that was my point

So out of curiosity, how do Muslims in general reconcile their holidays and such in the Qu'ran since they kind of pop into existence? Is it that the holiday celebrations were "lost" at some point? I have always wondered that!

I just totally disagree that selection of books and the intentions behind the selection does not equal corruption. But I'm not sure we'd convince each other otherwise on that one.

Can you elaborate on the holidays question? I don't know what you mean.

It's no more corruption than Islamic scholars arguing over how to interpret the requirement to be modest is corruption. The difference is that Christianity doesn't think that God dictated the book, just inspired it. And there were a lot of independent authors. So, there were a bunch of candidate books and a bunch of candidate theories about, e.g., the divinity of Christ, and basically, sides argued back and forth and eventually the council decided on a consensus. And the story goes that God was guiding them while they prayed as to whether this story about Christ was true or this one was false.

It doesn't mean that they were immune to having their own agendas, but, I don't know, if you can believe that God dictated a book, certainly you can understand why people might believe that God inspired people to make the correct decisions about which stories to include as canon.

It's corrupt only if your standard is 'directly writing what God said', but I think of it more like the Constitutional Convention, or a group of philosophers arguing. What I think of as corruption would include bad translations.

[The dip sticks 0]

For those of you who do not follow any of the hadiths, how do you know the correct way to pray?

Allah, the God says in 6:38 that HE did not leave out anything out of Qur'an. Salaat and the other rituals of Islam are not mentioned in Hadiths and Sunna as well. Pr. Mohammed followed the same Contact prayer that Pr. Abraham did yeara before.

The Quran proclaims that the Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114, 115; 50:45), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam, (submisssion).

The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed and should therefore be the only source of religious laws and guidance. The true obedience of prophet Muhammad is only by obeying the Quran, which is indeed a narration through the Prophet. Thus the Quran is the only true and proven Hadith from prophet Muhammad.

This principle is confirmed by the Quran's mathematical code. Verse 46 of Surat 17 proclaims that we shall uphold the Quran ALONE. The word "ALONE" occurs in the Quran 6 times: 7:70, 17:46, 39:45, 40: 12 & 84, and 60:4. All these occurrences refer to God, except 17:46. When we add the numbers of suras and verses which refer to "GOD ALONE," we get 361, 19x19. This proves that 17:46 refers to "the Quran ALONE.

Ok...so where in the Quran does it tell you how many rakats at which prayer time? I've read the Quran three times from front to back so not too much but never have I seen such specifics. I've seen in the Quran when to pray but not exactly how. What surah tells me exactly what to say at what prayer time and when to prostrate during the salat, etc? I was taught that the Quran tells me to follow what the Prophet Mohammed, pbuh, does and that by doing so his companions learned the proper way to pray.

the times and way to pray and words are all in the quran.

I know that is what you are telling me and I am asking you to please show me what surahs tell me how many rakats for each salat and when to prostrate during my salats please.

I can say everything is in the Quran too but without exact quotes proving your point it's just typing on a screen.

Its a bit long winded and its work time in London, but if you really insist I will once im home, is that ok?

[doodlebug 3]

Its a bit long winded and its work time in London, but if you really insist I will once im home, is that ok?

Well don't break your back over it. I just wanted you to support your argument at all and figured you had it handy since you started the thread. If you already have it down then fine but if you have to go research it then take your time...though maybe it will be helpful to you in the end.

[Nasturtium 500]

It doesn't mean that they were immune to having their own agendas, but, I don't know, if you can believe that God dictated a book, certainly you can understand why people might believe that God inspired people to make the correct decisions about which stories to include as canon.

Actually, this makes me think of how one decides if hadith are authentic or not, although hadith are not claimed to be inspired by God per se .

[The dip sticks 0]

Its a bit long winded and its work time in London, but if you really insist I will once im home, is that ok?

Well don't break your back over it. I just wanted you to support your argument at all and figured you had it handy since you started the thread. If you already have it down then fine but if you have to go research it then take your time...though maybe it will be helpful to you in the end.

no i dont need to research but will have to find the surahs and so forth as i dont know the quran by heart yet, but a bit busy at the mo, will do it later. thanks

[doodlebug 3]

It doesn't mean that they were immune to having their own agendas, but, I don't know, if you can believe that God dictated a book, certainly you can understand why people might believe that God inspired people to make the correct decisions about which stories to include as canon.

Actually, this makes me think of how one decides if hadith are authentic or not, although hadith are not claimed to be inspired by God per se .

Well in a sense they are since we are told in the Quran to follow Mohammed, pbuh, and whatever Mohammed, pbuh, did after the revelation started was inspired by God. The trick is to make sure that the hadith one is looking at is authentic by looking at the source and how strong it is.

[chri'stina 190]

Hi I just want to add my thoughts here on the hadith.

The Quran is the final word of God. It is infact the bible before it was corrupted by the jews as prophesised in the bible ITSELF! but people dont seem to realise that, as Islam seems to alienated from christianity and Judaism.

Why is it so alienated. The reason is because most 95% or more muslims follow the books called the hadith (supposidly the sayings and actions of the prophet muhammed some 2 hundred years after his passing). Where infact it is not that, the way the hadith were put togather was asking people about stories heard from there fathers and their fathers etc and their fathers etc supposidly what the prophet Muhammed had said.

The Quran has wonderful scientific facts such as the earth being round, life originating in water, the balance of the universe and so forth. The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff.

My point here is the hadith is corrupted, it has nothing to do with Islam and should not be followed but maybe used in CAREFUL ways for some historical use.

It is NOT from GOD and was never intended by God for us to follow.

All the abuse and bad behaviour i.e barbaric punishments and bad treatment of women i.e covering them up from head to toe in a ninja suit and beating them by muslims originates from this book called the hadith. In my opinion it is far from God.

A muslim should follow the quran alone as it is perfect, there are no contradictions as in the hadith, it gives absolute 100% equal rights to women in every way and there is no barbaric punishment in there.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

Thank you very much for your presceptive. Much appreciated. But the reality is... this is an immmigration board. And as it seems posting opinion, esp in areas like religion where so many disagree will only get you pissed on (sorry) I would not waste my time with it.

I hope they bring it on.

Are you trying to prove that you are a total fcuking a$$hole?? please dont we know you are.....you use the fact you are English as an excuse for being rude and are proud of the fact you dont give a damn... do the rest of us from the UK a big favor.. crawl back under whatever stone you came out from this morning....

Kez

do me a favour ###### off you ####

Does the Quran support the language you used to be very rude to Kez and the way you addressed her? Me thinks not. I hate when someone tries to preach, from any religion, and the next minute acts like a total jerk, and uses language that I am pretty sure they are not supposed to according to their religion. Hypocritical.

BTW Kez called you names too but she isn't trying to talk about her religion and then tells someone off.

Edited August 14, 2007 by stina&suj