The hadith is not islam!

[mybackpages 0]

I don't have the time (unfortunately) to read this whole thread, but I would like to say that I think that individual hadith should be followed only if it makes sense to you. For example, this hadith makes absolutely no sense to me:

Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Source.

Basically, if you want to kill someone, do so and say s/he was insulting the Prophet. You'll get away with murder.

He must of not been too blind if he was able to look for a dagger and kill her.

well it was just a slave woman...so whats the big lost?

[rclouse 0]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate these discussions a great deal in ways that I can't really express right now.

As for the secondary part of this thread where things have heated up a bit, I do hope the folks involved can continue to express their opinions without going personal about it. Honestly, hearing several points of view is so valuable.

I will say one thing which has frustrated me. I have been told that my English translation of the Quran will help me but that ultimately I won't understand everything I need to understand because the only real Quran is in Arabic. Okay, I can accept this, but were I to learn Arabic, were I to study Arabic through the last years of my life, I would never truly understand Arabic. My reading of the Quran would still be a translation, but instead, I would be doing the translation in my head. I believe my own translation would be far less reliable than that of scholars who have been essentially bilingual since birth and who have other scholars to agree or disagree publicly with their translation. I don't know Arabic. I was not born into a Muslim family. I didn't know any Muslims growing up. So now, if I approach Islam and the Quran from where I am, will I always get that pat on the head, "nice try, kid, but"... ? Will I always be "less than" those "born speaking" Arabic or "born into" the religion? I can answer with what I believe. What I believe is no, that God sees us as equals and will never see my questions and opinions as any less valid than those of someone who was born in a particular place or to particular parents. So my faith is between me and God, and I will go to God without fear or shame with whatever questions I have, without feeling pressured to believe this or that just because another living, breathing human being says I should. But I won't be sharing much of what I believe with other people in the real world, at least not at this time. It's too tender and too precious. Does it make sense that the Bible and the Quran can both move me to tears, that when I pray I believe I am praying to the God that I know from the Bible and that he is the same as the God who gave the Quran? But people murder each other over this! Maybe a naive statement for me to make -- it's something a kid will say, "Why are they fighting?" The problem is that nobody ever answers the kid.

Years ago, I made a comment about current events that my uncle disagreed with. His response was that since I had not lived through World War II, I would never really understand how the world works, and therefore my opinions about politics, international relations, all of that, were not as valid as his own. Okay, so, boom, now he has won every argument we will ever have. I never felt any desire to express an opinion to him after that day. I feel the same frustration when the trump card in an argument is language or background or "because God says so." You don't speak it or you weren't born into it. Therefore, your opinions will always have less weight than someone else's. I can accept this when it comes to sociology, to understanding man-made traditions and so on. But in matters of religion, I simply do not believe the God who made us all equal intended to set us against each other that way. So I'm still muddling through that mess when it comes to learning about Islam, and Christianity as well, for that matter. And I'm not going to give up based on games of semantics that people want to play with each other and which, in my opinion, guide us away from the true message.

Maybe this doesn't belong on VJ, but there's really no other place I can express it. So thanks for listening, and back to topic...

honestly---you took the words right out of my mouth!! every word speaks from my heart as well.

chi

Wow, I didn't notice this one.

THIS.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate these discussions a great deal in ways that I can't really express right now.

As for the secondary part of this thread where things have heated up a bit, I do hope the folks involved can continue to express their opinions without going personal about it. Honestly, hearing several points of view is so valuable.

I will say one thing which has frustrated me. I have been told that my English translation of the Quran will help me but that ultimately I won't understand everything I need to understand because the only real Quran is in Arabic. Okay, I can accept this, but were I to learn Arabic, were I to study Arabic through the last years of my life, I would never truly understand Arabic. My reading of the Quran would still be a translation, but instead, I would be doing the translation in my head. I believe my own translation would be far less reliable than that of scholars who have been essentially bilingual since birth and who have other scholars to agree or disagree publicly with their translation. I don't know Arabic. I was not born into a Muslim family. I didn't know any Muslims growing up. So now, if I approach Islam and the Quran from where I am, will I always get that pat on the head, "nice try, kid, but"... ? Will I always be "less than" those "born speaking" Arabic or "born into" the religion? I can answer with what I believe. What I believe is no, that God sees us as equals and will never see my questions and opinions as any less valid than those of someone who was born in a particular place or to particular parents. So my faith is between me and God, and I will go to God without fear or shame with whatever questions I have, without feeling pressured to believe this or that just because another living, breathing human being says I should. But I won't be sharing much of what I believe with other people in the real world, at least not at this time. It's too tender and too precious. Does it make sense that the Bible and the Quran can both move me to tears, that when I pray I believe I am praying to the God that I know from the Bible and that he is the same as the God who gave the Quran? But people murder each other over this! Maybe a naive statement for me to make -- it's something a kid will say, "Why are they fighting?" The problem is that nobody ever answers the kid.

Years ago, I made a comment about current events that my uncle disagreed with. His response was that since I had not lived through World War II, I would never really understand how the world works, and therefore my opinions about politics, international relations, all of that, were not as valid as his own. Okay, so, boom, now he has won every argument we will ever have. I never felt any desire to express an opinion to him after that day. I feel the same frustration when the trump card in an argument is language or background or "because God says so." You don't speak it or you weren't born into it. Therefore, your opinions will always have less weight than someone else's. I can accept this when it comes to sociology, to understanding man-made traditions and so on. But in matters of religion, I simply do not believe the God who made us all equal intended to set us against each other that way. So I'm still muddling through that mess when it comes to learning about Islam, and Christianity as well, for that matter. And I'm not going to give up based on games of semantics that people want to play with each other and which, in my opinion, guide us away from the true message.

Maybe this doesn't belong on VJ, but there's really no other place I can express it. So thanks for listening, and back to topic...

Hi,

You dont need to learn arabic to learn the quran, It's usualy nonsense coming from arabs themselves when they say that. I even get them saying I'll never understand it even if i can speak arabic, I have to BE an arab to understand it...

Adiel

[zxed 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

[chiquita 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

different perspective, thank you

chi

[RAKASA 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I really have to agree w/ you - it *is* a simple religion - people try to make it complicated. Good points made!

[ninaoquinn 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

[zxed 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

Thank you for the compliments, i was born muslim, my wife converted to islam after she met me and learnt about it. I am also not religious, i eat non-halal/non-kosher meat when i eat out, when i was in college i wanted to drink and party and i did, more than others, never ate pork, i no longer drink, still do not eat pork, the meat we bring home now is kosher..

The reason why i point that out is because, everything thats out there, books, advice, lessons learnt from the past, from others are just guides., they are there to guide you through life and to be a good person, do not do to your neighbour what you wouldnt do to your self., they all teach you to be a good person. they all preach the same thing., ,.. the true meaning of life is to "live", and thats what we should all do, live and live well with others.

ive had to retype my reply coz i start drifting in other directions so ill just post this.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

Thank you for the compliments, i was born muslim, my wife converted to islam after she met me and learnt about it. I am also not religious, i eat non-halal/non-kosher meat when i eat out, when i was in college i wanted to drink and party and i did, more than others, never ate pork, i no longer drink, still do not eat pork, the meat we bring home now is kosher..

The reason why i point that out is because, everything thats out there, books, advice, lessons learnt from the past, from others are just guides., they are there to guide you through life and to be a good person, do not do to your neighbour what you wouldnt do to your self., they all teach you to be a good person. they all preach the same thing., ,.. the true meaning of life is to "live", and thats what we should all do, live and live well with others.

ive had to retype my reply coz i start drifting in other directions so ill just post this.

Hi,

Actualy Ive done a topic on what exactly is halal meat according to the Quran only. You may be surprised. Go to MENA and look on page 3, 4 or 5.

Adiel (mireyas hubby)

[zxed 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

Thank you for the compliments, i was born muslim, my wife converted to islam after she met me and learnt about it. I am also not religious, i eat non-halal/non-kosher meat when i eat out, when i was in college i wanted to drink and party and i did, more than others, never ate pork, i no longer drink, still do not eat pork, the meat we bring home now is kosher..

The reason why i point that out is because, everything thats out there, books, advice, lessons learnt from the past, from others are just guides., they are there to guide you through life and to be a good person, do not do to your neighbour what you wouldnt do to your self., they all teach you to be a good person. they all preach the same thing., ,.. the true meaning of life is to "live", and thats what we should all do, live and live well with others.

ive had to retype my reply coz i start drifting in other directions so ill just post this.

Hi,

Actualy Ive done a topic on what exactly is halal meat according to the Quran only. You may be surprised. Go to MENA and look on page 3, 4 or 5.

Adiel (mireyas hubby)

btw looking at your original post again.... you had said "Where infact it is not that, the way the hadith were put togather was asking people about stories heard from there fathers and their fathers etc and their fathers etc supposidly what the prophet Muhammed had said.

The Quran has wonderful scientific facts such as the earth being round, life originating in water, the balance of the universe and so forth. The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff. "

but thats not correct... lets take this for example.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari

they went thru a verification processes that is well known and documented by Bukhari

generalizations get us no where.... i can however relate to where your thought process might originate from

Third world countries, povery, superstitions, bring ignorance into play and mix the teachings of the quran with hadiths, its usually parents, or your neighbours mom or an uncle who will say something and live by it as if it was the word of god, for example, " i eat rice with my hands, instead of a fork because the prophet use to".. thoughts on that line are not right, not wrong., but if someone tries to preach to me that i shouldnt eat with a fork, then we have an issue......... following believes without reason or logic... blah blah blah., that is what you are refering to.,

however, when you start saying "My point here is the hadith is corrupted, it has nothing to do with Islam ".... or "The reason is because most 95% or more muslims follow the books "., what are you basing the facts on? where did you get the 95% from? what are your credentials??........ without bases your generalizations end up being the same as "The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff"....

hope what i was trying to say made sense.....

[The_dip_sticks 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

Thank you for the compliments, i was born muslim, my wife converted to islam after she met me and learnt about it. I am also not religious, i eat non-halal/non-kosher meat when i eat out, when i was in college i wanted to drink and party and i did, more than others, never ate pork, i no longer drink, still do not eat pork, the meat we bring home now is kosher..

The reason why i point that out is because, everything thats out there, books, advice, lessons learnt from the past, from others are just guides., they are there to guide you through life and to be a good person, do not do to your neighbour what you wouldnt do to your self., they all teach you to be a good person. they all preach the same thing., ,.. the true meaning of life is to "live", and thats what we should all do, live and live well with others.

ive had to retype my reply coz i start drifting in other directions so ill just post this.

Hi,

Actualy Ive done a topic on what exactly is halal meat according to the Quran only. You may be surprised. Go to MENA and look on page 3, 4 or 5.

Adiel (mireyas hubby)

btw looking at your original post again.... you had said "Where infact it is not that, the way the hadith were put togather was asking people about stories heard from there fathers and their fathers etc and their fathers etc supposidly what the prophet Muhammed had said.

The Quran has wonderful scientific facts such as the earth being round, life originating in water, the balance of the universe and so forth. The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff. "

but thats not correct... lets take this for example.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari

they went thru a verification processes that is well known and documented by Bukhari

generalizations get us no where.... i can however relate to where your thought process might originate from

Third world countries, povery, superstitions, bring ignorance into play and mix the teachings of the quran with hadiths, its usually parents, or your neighbours mom or an uncle who will say something and live by it as if it was the word of god, for example, " i eat rice with my hands, instead of a fork because the prophet use to".. thoughts on that line are not right, not wrong., but if someone tries to preach to me that i shouldnt eat with a fork, then we have an issue......... following believes without reason or logic... blah blah blah., that is what you are refering to.,

however, when you start saying "My point here is the hadith is corrupted, it has nothing to do with Islam ".... or "The reason is because most 95% or more muslims follow the books "., what are you basing the facts on? where did you get the 95% from? what are your credentials??........ without bases your generalizations end up being the same as "The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff"....

hope what i was trying to say made sense.....

hi,

Not quite, I say we dont require hadith full stop!

It was not intended at all. The Quran says it is "fully detailed and complete" and my argument is hadith is not required. Yes I did generalise about the fathers fathers comment, ofcourse assumingly it isnt all like that and I say assuming as no one REALLY knows.

Also its not just about eating with hand or fork, but the fact that the prayer is different in the Quran, the ablution is different in the Quran, the pilgrimage is different, the fasting time is different, even the shahadah is different!, what is halal meat is different in the Quran, the punishments are different in Quran, even definition of a muslim is different in Quran and many more things, infact its like comparing apples to oranges... thats my point.

I base the 95% of practicing muslims following some form of hadith is not an exact figure and can never be an exacting figure but I would actualy say it may be more than that. But rounded it off.

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

[zxed 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

Thank you for the compliments, i was born muslim, my wife converted to islam after she met me and learnt about it. I am also not religious, i eat non-halal/non-kosher meat when i eat out, when i was in college i wanted to drink and party and i did, more than others, never ate pork, i no longer drink, still do not eat pork, the meat we bring home now is kosher..

The reason why i point that out is because, everything thats out there, books, advice, lessons learnt from the past, from others are just guides., they are there to guide you through life and to be a good person, do not do to your neighbour what you wouldnt do to your self., they all teach you to be a good person. they all preach the same thing., ,.. the true meaning of life is to "live", and thats what we should all do, live and live well with others.

ive had to retype my reply coz i start drifting in other directions so ill just post this.

Hi,

Actualy Ive done a topic on what exactly is halal meat according to the Quran only. You may be surprised. Go to MENA and look on page 3, 4 or 5.

Adiel (mireyas hubby)

btw looking at your original post again.... you had said "Where infact it is not that, the way the hadith were put togather was asking people about stories heard from there fathers and their fathers etc and their fathers etc supposidly what the prophet Muhammed had said.

The Quran has wonderful scientific facts such as the earth being round, life originating in water, the balance of the universe and so forth. The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff. "

but thats not correct... lets take this for example.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari

they went thru a verification processes that is well known and documented by Bukhari

generalizations get us no where.... i can however relate to where your thought process might originate from

Third world countries, povery, superstitions, bring ignorance into play and mix the teachings of the quran with hadiths, its usually parents, or your neighbours mom or an uncle who will say something and live by it as if it was the word of god, for example, " i eat rice with my hands, instead of a fork because the prophet use to".. thoughts on that line are not right, not wrong., but if someone tries to preach to me that i shouldnt eat with a fork, then we have an issue......... following believes without reason or logic... blah blah blah., that is what you are refering to.,

however, when you start saying "My point here is the hadith is corrupted, it has nothing to do with Islam ".... or "The reason is because most 95% or more muslims follow the books "., what are you basing the facts on? where did you get the 95% from? what are your credentials??........ without bases your generalizations end up being the same as "The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff"....

hope what i was trying to say made sense.....

hi,

Not quite, I say we dont require hadith full stop!

It was not intended at all. The Quran says it is "fully detailed and complete" and my argument is hadith is not required. Yes I did generalise about the fathers fathers comment, ofcourse assumingly it isnt all like that and I say assuming as no one REALLY knows.

Also its not just about eating with hand or fork, but the fact that the prayer is different in the Quran, the ablution is different in the Quran, the pilgrimage is different, the fasting time is different, even the shahadah is different!, what is halal meat is different in the Quran, the punishments are different in Quran, even definition of a muslim is different in Quran and many more things, infact its like comparing apples to oranges... thats my point.

I base the 95% of practicing muslims following some form of hadith is not an exact figure and can never be an exacting figure but I would actualy say it may be more than that. But rounded it off.

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

well to add to that, the hadith is not the problem, you need to pull it back to another level, after the prophet died you had the seperation of sunnis and shias, and they now play an important role in which one is correct and which one is wrong., its the seperation or the "need" for having something following the quran that is the issue, when the prophet died, that was it, nothing more after that, all in alll., hadith., khalifs, blah blah blah., all is wrong and not necessary., the quran superseeds any "khumani" and his sayings... or what he says., you are right in the fact that the quran was completed and that is it., it is the word of god.. its the "people" who mess things up., the shias who require a sucessor to the prophet?? and the sunnis who say that shias are not muslims., we need to go back to following the quran, and here being just one mulism, not a "are you sunni, or are you shiaa"....

people need to understand that., and go back to the religion as a single.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

so i was browsing and i came upon this, decent topic, but ofcourse the bias and personal opinions, ignorance? falls thru and adds to the heat of the topic, doesnt it always? anyway..

There are some phrases/words in the quran itself that have "unknown" meanings in arabic.

Any context can be taken to fit its purpose, the hadit is not corrupt, nor are the original books for their respective religions.

Must you know arabic to understand islam? No. the english versions suffice, if the issue or question is very important to you, and there are 15 versions/transalations, read them all and decide which is right for you, in Islam "Intent" plays a strong role, i dont know if it does the same for other religions.... for example, Muslims are not allowed to eat meat that is not slaughtered the correct way(in islam), however it also says that Muslims can eat what Christians and Jews can eat (minus pork), so which is it? you can have your way and i can have mine, and we can both be right, as long as our intentions were to follow the correct rule. Just like that, the hadith is what the prophet did in his opinion of what was right and what was wrong, and as the original poster pointed out, the correct book with the rules and stuff is the Quran, and the hadith is lessons learnt,. i bet that if you write a book on how to drive, it will be much different than the learning guide issued by the DMV....

The hadith is an important part of islam, if your intent is to make something that is wrong, right, by pointing at the hadith, then your intention was to do wrong in the first place. The quran says not to kill, if you point at the hadith and say, " but this says its okay", then you are finding ways to justify wrong....

All in all, its a simple religion, its people that make it complicated.

I have to say that I enjoyed reading your post. While I am not a "religious" person, my SO is Muslim and we talk about many things concerning Islam. I have also studied various religions in college. I can honestly say that your post was one of the most thoughtful and straightforward replies that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate your perspective and your contribution. As long as there are people, there will be many different views and interpretations of anything, not just religion. Your example about the DMV was a great analogy to use. Great post!

Thank you for the compliments, i was born muslim, my wife converted to islam after she met me and learnt about it. I am also not religious, i eat non-halal/non-kosher meat when i eat out, when i was in college i wanted to drink and party and i did, more than others, never ate pork, i no longer drink, still do not eat pork, the meat we bring home now is kosher..

The reason why i point that out is because, everything thats out there, books, advice, lessons learnt from the past, from others are just guides., they are there to guide you through life and to be a good person, do not do to your neighbour what you wouldnt do to your self., they all teach you to be a good person. they all preach the same thing., ,.. the true meaning of life is to "live", and thats what we should all do, live and live well with others.

ive had to retype my reply coz i start drifting in other directions so ill just post this.

Hi,

Actualy Ive done a topic on what exactly is halal meat according to the Quran only. You may be surprised. Go to MENA and look on page 3, 4 or 5.

Adiel (mireyas hubby)

btw looking at your original post again.... you had said "Where infact it is not that, the way the hadith were put togather was asking people about stories heard from there fathers and their fathers etc and their fathers etc supposidly what the prophet Muhammed had said.

The Quran has wonderful scientific facts such as the earth being round, life originating in water, the balance of the universe and so forth. The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff. "

but thats not correct... lets take this for example.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari

they went thru a verification processes that is well known and documented by Bukhari

generalizations get us no where.... i can however relate to where your thought process might originate from

Third world countries, povery, superstitions, bring ignorance into play and mix the teachings of the quran with hadiths, its usually parents, or your neighbours mom or an uncle who will say something and live by it as if it was the word of god, for example, " i eat rice with my hands, instead of a fork because the prophet use to".. thoughts on that line are not right, not wrong., but if someone tries to preach to me that i shouldnt eat with a fork, then we have an issue......... following believes without reason or logic... blah blah blah., that is what you are refering to.,

however, when you start saying "My point here is the hadith is corrupted, it has nothing to do with Islam ".... or "The reason is because most 95% or more muslims follow the books "., what are you basing the facts on? where did you get the 95% from? what are your credentials??........ without bases your generalizations end up being the same as "The hadith has science such as drink camels urine for health and stuff"....

hope what i was trying to say made sense.....

hi,

Not quite, I say we dont require hadith full stop!

It was not intended at all. The Quran says it is "fully detailed and complete" and my argument is hadith is not required. Yes I did generalise about the fathers fathers comment, ofcourse assumingly it isnt all like that and I say assuming as no one REALLY knows.

Also its not just about eating with hand or fork, but the fact that the prayer is different in the Quran, the ablution is different in the Quran, the pilgrimage is different, the fasting time is different, even the shahadah is different!, what is halal meat is different in the Quran, the punishments are different in Quran, even definition of a muslim is different in Quran and many more things, infact its like comparing apples to oranges... thats my point.

I base the 95% of practicing muslims following some form of hadith is not an exact figure and can never be an exacting figure but I would actualy say it may be more than that. But rounded it off.

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

well to add to that, the hadith is not the problem, you need to pull it back to another level, after the prophet died you had the seperation of sunnis and shias, and they now play an important role in which one is correct and which one is wrong., its the seperation or the "need" for having something following the quran that is the issue, when the prophet died, that was it, nothing more after that, all in alll., hadith., khalifs, blah blah blah., all is wrong and not necessary., the quran superseeds any "khumani" and his sayings... or what he says., you are right in the fact that the quran was completed and that is it., it is the word of god.. its the "people" who mess things up., the shias who require a sucessor to the prophet?? and the sunnis who say that shias are not muslims., we need to go back to following the quran, and here being just one mulism, not a "are you sunni, or are you shiaa"....

people need to understand that., and go back to the religion as a single.

Hi,

EXACTLY! I have voiced this argument so many times also. If one were to abandon hadiths no longer will there be shia, sunni, wahabi and all the other dozens of sects. There will only be muslim. No more quareling and no more fighting because of seperation. There would be unity in Islam once again. Also it would free people from the bondage of "Khumani's" etc and free peoples minds.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

[mybackpages 0]

[well to add to that, the hadith is not the problem, you need to pull it back to another level, after the prophet died you had the seperation of sunnis and shias, and they now play an important role in which one is correct and which one is wrong., its the seperation or the "need" for having something following the quran that is the issue, when the prophet died, that was it, nothing more after that, all in alll., hadith., khalifs, blah blah blah., all is wrong and not necessary., the quran superseeds any "khumani" and his sayings... or what he says., you are right in the fact that the quran was completed and that is it., it is the word of god.. its the "people" who mess things up., the shias who require a sucessor to the prophet?? and the sunnis who say that shias are not muslims., we need to go back to following the quran, and here being just one mulism, not a "are you sunni, or are you shiaa"....

people need to understand that., and go back to the religion as a single.

Hi,

EXACTLY! I have voiced this argument so many times also. If one were to abandon hadiths no longer will there be shia, sunni, wahabi and all the other dozens of sects. There will only be muslim. No more quareling and no more fighting because of seperation. There would be unity in Islam once again. Also it would free people from the bondage of "Khumani's" etc and free peoples minds.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

But you guys seem to forgetting there is disagreement over the meanig of some ayats in the Quran. Hadiths are not the only things causing division.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

[well to add to that, the hadith is not the problem, you need to pull it back to another level, after the prophet died you had the seperation of sunnis and shias, and they now play an important role in which one is correct and which one is wrong., its the seperation or the "need" for having something following the quran that is the issue, when the prophet died, that was it, nothing more after that, all in alll., hadith., khalifs, blah blah blah., all is wrong and not necessary., the quran superseeds any "khumani" and his sayings... or what he says., you are right in the fact that the quran was completed and that is it., it is the word of god.. its the "people" who mess things up., the shias who require a sucessor to the prophet?? and the sunnis who say that shias are not muslims., we need to go back to following the quran, and here being just one mulism, not a "are you sunni, or are you shiaa"....

people need to understand that., and go back to the religion as a single.

Hi,

EXACTLY! I have voiced this argument so many times also. If one were to abandon hadiths no longer will there be shia, sunni, wahabi and all the other dozens of sects. There will only be muslim. No more quareling and no more fighting because of seperation. There would be unity in Islam once again. Also it would free people from the bondage of "Khumani's" etc and free peoples minds.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

But you guys seem to forgetting there is disagreement over the meanig of some ayats in the Quran. Hadiths are not the only things causing division.

The disagreements in the ayats are because of the diffrences in the hadith mainly. If they spent the time studying the Quran with absolutely no bias and not even glimpsing the hadith. I mean absolutely start afresh. You will find the differences will be so minute almost to the point of insignificance. Even now within sunnis themselves there are minute differences but they still tend to agree to the majority and binds them togather. Thats the point.

Peace

Adiel (Mireys hubby)