ROC with narcisstic US citizen husband

[Demise 1,306]

On 12/25/2024 at 1:51 AM, Daphne . said:

OP already has a green card and needs to remove the conditions, which they can do on their own with a divorce waiver. 

VAWA ROC waiver is an option. The positive is that you don't need to be divorced to seek it and get to keep the 3 year eligibility for naturalization. The downside is arguing all the VAWA abuse stuff.

[OldUser 7,030]

41 minutes ago, Demise said:

VAWA ROC waiver is an option. The positive is that you don't need to be divorced to seek it and get to keep the 3 year eligibility for naturalization. The downside is arguing all the VAWA abuse stuff.

There's no VAWA when it comes to I-751. It's neither in instructions, nor on form.

 

There's:

- Joint filing

- Individual filing with following waivers:

  - spouse is deceased

  - good faith marriage (divorce waiver)

  - batterry and extreme cruelty (this is not VAWA. VAWA is applicable to AOS, but not ROC).

  - extreme hardship

 

 

Unless there's a lot of documented extreme abuse, the easiest path is divorce waiver path. Abuse can be mentioned in cover letter and explain why marriage didn't work out.

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by OldUser

[Argenta2623 1]

2 hours ago, Demise said:

VAWA ROC waiver is an option. The positive is that you don't need to be divorced to seek it and get to keep the 3 year eligibility for naturalization. The downside is arguing all the VAWA abuse stuff.

Hi, do you mean ROC waiver for battery and extreme cruelty? Have you had experience? Please share with me the information you have, I have enough DV evidence 

[Boiler 45,784]

If you want to go that route definitely use a Lawyer

[Demise 1,306]

1 hour ago, OldUser said:

There's no VAWA when it comes to I-751. It's neither in instructions, nor on form.

 

There's:

- Joint filing

- Individual filing with following waivers:

  - spouse is deceased

  - good faith marriage (divorce waiver)

  - batterry and extreme cruelty (this is not VAWA. VAWA is applicable to AOS, but not ROC).

  - extreme hardship

 

 

Unless there's a lot of documented extreme abuse, the easiest path is divorce waiver path. Abuse can be mentioned in cover letter and explain why marriage didn't work out.

INA 101(a)(51)(C):

 

INA 216(a)(4)(C) (8 USC 1154a):

 

VAWA Naturalization Sheet:

 

Basically, if you see "battery or extreme cruelty", just presume VAWA.

Edited 15 hours ago by Demise

[Demise 1,306]

16 minutes ago, Argenta2623 said:

Hi, do you mean ROC waiver for battery and extreme cruelty? Have you had experience? Please share with me the information you have, I have enough DV evidence 

 

I've done my own I-360. Generally the evidence you want is a self-affidavit explaining your married life and how bad the abuse was. A psychological evaluation is also highly recommended.

If you have other evidence like medical records of injuries, police reports, restraining orders, third party statements, etc, those are also worthwhile to submit.

 

Finally all the proofs you can muster that the marriage was legitimate while it lasted. This one is somehow more important than the abuse part.

 

Other than that, in the VAWA thread you basically never see any RFEs relating to the abuse part unless the statements made are contradictory. USCIS questions the validity of the marriage while it lasted a lot harder than they question the abuse parts. I received an RFE myself, USCIS took my self-affidavit at face value and then put me through the wringer that the marriage was legit.

 

Now, most people there are doing I-360 self petitions rather than I-751 waivers but the eligibility and evidence submitted is basically the same and is reviewed by the same humanitarian team..

 

I would strongly recommend getting a lawyer to handle this, however - it's not easy, but it's not like you need to be the most abused spouse on the planet to be approved.

Edited 15 hours ago by Demise

[Demise 1,306]

16 minutes ago, Demise said:

 

INA 216(a)(4)(C) (8 USC 1154a):

 

 

Small correction because it's outside edit window

(8 USC 1154a) should instead read (8 USC 1168a)

[Argenta2623 1]

11 minutes ago, Demise said:

Now, most people there are doing I-360 self petitions rather than I-751 waivers but the eligibility and evidence submitted is basically the same and is reviewed by the same humanitarian team..

Have you had approved 2 years green card or you were at AOS stage when you applied for I 360 VAWA petition?

[OldUser 7,030]

19 minutes ago, Demise said:

USCIS questions the validity of the marriage while it lasted a lot harder than they question the abuse parts. I received an RFE myself, USCIS took my self-affidavit at face value and then put me through the wringer that the marriage was legit.

I understand going abuse route to adjust and obtain GC as there's no other way to adjust.

 

If you still have to provide good faith marriage, why choose an abuse route for ROC? Why give extra point USCIS can scrutinize the case over?

 

Of course, you don't have to go through most abuse in the world to abuse waiver case approved. But there is word "extreme" in it for a reason, and it's open for interpretation.

 

For example, I wouldn't say name calling is extreme abuse, though it's abuse. I wouldn't say cutting access to finances is extreme abuse, though it's abuse. I wouldn't say most of controlling behavior is extreme abuse, though it's abuse.

 

I would classify the following things as clearly extreme abuse:

- Physical abuse / injuries

- Mental abuse (constant life or other threats, constant public humiliation, exploiting preexisting mental trauma)

- Pushing a person to commit suicide

Edited 15 hours ago by OldUser

[nastra30 2,309]

30 minutes ago, Demise said:

 

Basically, if you see "battery or extreme cruelty", just presume VAWA.

I disagree.

While both I-751 waivers based on battery or extreme cruelty and VAWA petitions involve domestic abuse, they are not exactly the same acts. They are different acts. 

[nastra30 2,309]

20 minutes ago, Argenta2623 said:

Have you had approved 2 years green card or you were at AOS stage when you applied for I 360 VAWA petition?

You'll not be applying for anything VAWA at all. It will be I751 with a waiver which is a very specific narrow provision for ROC. That is if you choose that route.

Edited 14 hours ago by nastra30

[Demise 1,306]

27 minutes ago, OldUser said:

I understand going abuse route to adjust and obtain GC as there's no other way to adjust.

 

If you still have to provide good faith marriage, why choose an abuse route for ROC? Why give extra point USCIS can scrutinize the case over?

 

Of course, you don't have to go through most abuse in the world to abuse waiver case approved. But there is word "extreme" in it for a reason, and it's open for interpretation.

1. You can naturalize after 3 years.

2. You do not have to be divorced.

Those are the two main pluses. Guess what they scrutinize the marriage if you seek the divorce waiver too. Finally you can seek multiple waiver filings on a single I-751. They will most likely summon you for an interview so you can drop ones that didn't prevail.

 

In re word "extreme": Yeah and there's two ways to reach the finding of extreme cruelty, you can have one single hair raising act or you can have a pattern of behavior where none of the acts taken in a vacuum are extreme but there's a pile of them that will wear you down.

 

20 minutes ago, nastra30 said:

I disagree.

While both I-751 waivers based on battery or extreme cruelty and VAWA petitions involve domestic abuse, they are not exactly the same acts. They are different acts. 

We're really arguing about minutia. Sure the section might've originated with the Immigration Act of 1990 however it was basically absorbed into VAWA by section 811 of VAWA 2005 by including it in the definitions of who a VAWA self-petitioner is. Also both 216(c)(4)(C) and VAWA relevant parts of INA 204 both use some variation of "battery or extreme cruelty" not domestic abuse  or anything of the like. Similar with the few other scattered abused spouse benefits (CCA, NACARA, cancellation of removal, and probably some others).

 

(U-visa uses domestic violence but that's because U-visa requires a crime to have been committed, reported, and ideally prosecuted)

 

Like neither of us is really wrong unless USCIS tells you to face the wall for calling it the VAWA waiver.

 

 

Either way, I'm gonna drop it here because this conversation is not conductive to anything. In either case the law uses the same term for both and USCIS reviews both in the same place by a team that likely applies very similar standards to both.

Edited 14 hours ago by Demise

[OldUser 7,030]

26 minutes ago, OldUser said:

I understand going abuse route to adjust and obtain GC as there's no other way to adjust.

 

If you still have to provide good faith marriage, why choose an abuse route for ROC? Why give extra point USCIS can scrutinize the case over?

 

Of course, you don't have to go through most abuse in the world to abuse waiver case approved. But there is word "extreme" in it for a reason, and it's open for interpretation.

 

For example, I wouldn't say name calling is extreme abuse, though it's abuse. I wouldn't say cutting access to finances is extreme abuse, though it's abuse. I wouldn't say most of controlling behavior is extreme abuse, though it's abuse.

 

I would classify the following things as clearly extreme abuse:

- Physical abuse / injuries

- Mental abuse (constant life or other threats, constant public humiliation, exploiting preexisting mental trauma)

- Pushing a person to commit suicide

Pretty good explanation from lawyer who sees many immigration cases:

 

 

At 56:40

 

 

 

[OldUser 7,030]

7 minutes ago, Demise said:

1. You can naturalize after 3 years.

 

Applying for N-400 under this provision may result in reevaluation of entire history of abuse. I wouldn't take it unless had some serious reason to naturalize faster.

 

9 minutes ago, Demise said:

2. You do not have to be divorced.

Those are the two main pluses.

I'd recommend anybody in toxic relationship to divorce ASAP. Bad spouse can always open new loans in both names, do other harm due to being married. There's no reason to be married to abuser really.

[OldUser 7,030]

11 minutes ago, Demise said:

Guess what they scrutinize the marriage if you seek the divorce waiver too.

So hence my question why get evaluated under both points (good faith marriage and abuse) VS just proving good faith marriage.

 

I guess the only good reason is to naturalize faster. Does it apply for both prior holders of I-360 and those who removed conditions with abuse waiver?