Egyptian girl dies during female circumcision

[thetreble 19]

In any case the failure rate is largish, especially in Somalia. Often the female may be even paralyzed by the operation from the waste down. It is truly horrible.

By no means what-so-ever do I support any types or kinds of female (or male) circumcision. I just would like to put them on approx the same line as many types of female circumcision are far less damaging to the person than the typical male circumcision is.

Thank you for giving me the links. I will have a look at them. However, without data, I will not believe we can come to a consensus on how many women were actually getting this procedure done in the US over what you are saying is about a 50 year period.

Secondly, you contradict yourself a little. You are agreeing that the complications from female circumcision/cutting/mutilation can be GREAT and often result in terrible things like being paralyzed, but yet you are saying that many types of female circumcision are FAR LESS damaging compared to the typical male circumcision. That just does not make any sense. I have never met or heard of any little boys being paralyzed here in North America because of circumcision.

Edited August 13, 2007 by thetreble

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Where did this practice originate? It is truly barbaric.

It's said to have started in Ancient Egypt around 3000 to 2000 BCE. It's climed that the practice started among Pharaoes and was from there spread on to the general public. This is also the reason why the practice is still most common in the area where the Ancient Egyptian Empire once flourished.

Freakin ancient version of Jeffery Dahmer.

[Geist 0]

as for the hygiene thing I was thinking of little boys, they rarely like taking a bath etc so it would be harder for them to keep it clean....

Neither one of my nephews were circumcised and they're just fine. The body keeps itself clean and there is no need to retract the foreskin and "clean" underneath it.

I feel like posting graphic pictures of a female circumcision and let some of you restate your views. But I won't, it's just to gross to look at.

Why, for the ZERO people who have said they support female circumcision? No one has said that. But several of us have pointed out that there is as little sense for male circumcision as there is for female circumcision and both practices have their origins in ignorance.

Have you ever met or had a conversation - personally - with any female that has been mutilated as a child? Have you told them that they chose to have this done since it seems that they agreed with it or failed to run away? I can't believe this nonsense...

Yea, I've read both the books by Waris Dirie. When she discussed her circumcision, she talked about how she wanted to get it done early:

"When I was about 5 years old, I went to my mother and nagged, "Mama just find me this woman. Come on, when are you going to do it?" I thought I have to get it over with-- get this mysterious thing done. As my luck would have it, only a few days passed until the gypsy woman showed up again.

One evening my mother said to me, "By the way, your father ran into the gypsy woman. We're waiting for her; she should be here any day now." The night before my circumcision, ...I was nervous but resolved to get it over with. That evening the family made a special fuss over me and I got extra food at dinner. This was the tradition I'd witnessed through the years that made me envious of my older sisters."

...

"I lay awake with excitement that night until suddenly mama was standing over me...Now I know the reason they take the girls so early in the morning. They want to cut them before anybody wakes up, so that no one will hear them scream."

pp. 67-68, "Desert Flower"

So you see, there is a lot of cultural pressure behind it that will take time to die out. And my statement about girls being able to run away if they are dead set against it is simply to compare that with the fact that babies are incapable of running, not to mention incapable of making their desires known. Or have you ever had a baby boy tell you to leave his nether regions alone?

Why is it not possible to leave children alone until they're adults, and can decide whether or not they want to have themselves mutilated?

[Stabu 0]

My question is, what could possibly constitute an exceptional case where this kind of surgery would EVER be needed? It is absolutely disgusting! Religious reasons for this baffle me, well I don't know about in Islam, but it's made pretty clear in the Bible god made sex as a good thing to be enjoyed between husband and wife and make it a horrible experience for a woman (including childbirth, already bad enough) wouldn't be in that original plan!

The correct answer is in rare types of genital cancer, so rare that you could rightly say never. The factual answer is that you need to read between the lines. What the Egyptian law means in practice is that doctors still can provide it if they find any reason to do it. I've read from an article ages ago that some of these "reasons" are headache, stress and urinal tract infections among others. It's of course totally ridiculous.

Some Muslims clime that female circumcision should be mandated because Mohamed was circumcised (and Muslims should be like him). Others have said that it's because it reduces masturbation and infidelity. Most Muslims scholars seem to condemn it. My personal guess is that the practice is so deeply rooted into many African cultures that they defend it with anything and everything they can, including religion.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Where does scarification fit into this picture I wonder....?

[thetreble 19]

What is the difference between a baby and a 4 year old? Either way, their voices are not heard.

Yes, it is easy enough to understand that cultural traditions ARE just that- cultural traditions- and that they have social stipulations. I cannot judge someone's cultural tradition because I am not a part of it nor am I on the inside looking out. Therefore, I have never stated it was wrong. However, if you look at some of the information I have given in a couple of my last posts, I think we should all be able to agree that cultural or not, the MEDICAL way going about male and female circumcisions are completely different. One of them is pretty safe, the other is not for a wide variety of reasons. Male circumcision does not lead to physical scaring that will/can lead to all types of what can be deadly infections, male circumcision does not close up certain places in one's body meant for the release of fluids, and male circumcision does not make one unable to have sex, or painful to have sex, or to not be able to have pleasure in all forms of sexual experiences. Male circumcision does not take away a part of a man that is seen as important. I'm pretty sure most men would say they could live with or without their foreskin.

[Stabu 0]

However, without data, I will not believe we can come to a consensus on how many women were actually getting this procedure done in the US over what you are saying is about a 50 year period.

Well I don't personally believe that the percentage was that large. I mean even the male circumcision rate in the US before 1940 was around 30%. From 1900 to 1930 it was around 10%. My educated guess is that the female circumcision rate in the US between 1900 and 1950 was at max. 5%. Likely it was as little as 1-2%. Just like male circumcision then, also female circumcision was a largely marginalized phenomenon.

Secondly, you contradict yourself a little. You are agreeing that the complications from female circumcision/cutting/mutilation can be GREAT and often result in terrible things like being paralyzed, but yet you are saying that many types of female circumcision are FAR LESS damaging compared to the typical male circumcision. That just does not make any sense. I have never met or heard of any little boys being paralyzed here in North America because of circumcision.

No, I just haven't explained myself clearly enough . I wrote something about this manner earlier but I don't blame you for not reading it since this thread is becoming extremely long. In any case, the Egyptian form of female circumcision is horrible and it doesn't have any known male equivalents. It includes removing the #######, the hood, the inner ####### and sewing the female partly shut. HOWEVER not all types of female circumcision are like this. Regionally in Middle-East and Indonesia female circumcision is practiced and there they "only" remove the hood of the #######. This is milder than removing the whole foreskin of the male. Furthermore in South-America there are known to be forms of female circumcision where they "only" sting the ####### with a needle so that it drops a few drops of blood. This is less damaging than a genital piercing and far less damaging than a male circumcision. My main point was that different types of female circumcision and the normal male circumcision are all absolutely condemnable: they only vary in degree not in art. The art is wounding an innocent infant or child without his or her approval. Parents do not own their children they are only their caretakers until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

[thetreble 19]

Parents do not own their children they are only their caretakers until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

Ehhh...I think I may view this another way. When I have kids, I surely will look at them as MINE.

And what you said on the female/male circumcision in the early 20th century is interesting. I;m going to look into it. There has to be more, maybe even some data, somewhere. But I am guessing that under 5% is probably correct.

I just don't see male circumcision as damaging because I don't see the problem in it. It doesn't seem cause any problems, here any ways. Now if you can find me some data on the problems that come with male circumcision in a place like the US or Canada where it is done a lot, I would like to see it ya know? I know there are various types of female circumcision, some more horrible than others, but some of the similarities you draw can be debatable. Sticking a syringe in a 5 year old's ####### VS getting a genital piercing.. c'est différent, non? Getting a piercing is your choice when you reach 18 (may vary)...imagine how scary and painful it would be for a young girl to go through that?

Edited August 13, 2007 by thetreble

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Things like that just make me sick. People can be so stupid sometimes.

[SteveLaura 0]

I just don't see male circumcision as damaging because I don't see the problem in it. It doesn't seem cause any problems, here any ways.

Why have it done? Health? To be 'the same as the rest of the boys in the locker room'? Tradition? Culture?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I just don't see male circumcision as damaging because I don't see the problem in it. It doesn't seem cause any problems, here any ways.

Why have it done? Health? To be 'the same as the rest of the boys in the locker room'? Tradition? Culture?

To answer that question - best look at where (historically) the practice originated, and then take a look at the relative cultural differences between the US and Europe. IMO - while it has little to do with Christian doctines, it does have something to do Judeo-Christian cultural traditions

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Have you ever met or had a conversation - personally - with any female that has been mutilated as a child? Have you told them that they chose to have this done since it seems that they agreed with it or failed to run away? I can't believe this nonsense...

Yea, I've read both the books ...

So, the answer to my question is actually not "yea" but "no".

You've merely read a book or two.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I just don't see male circumcision as damaging because I don't see the problem in it. It doesn't seem cause any problems, here any ways.

Why have it done? Health?

Life, maybe:

Report: Male circumcision cuts AIDS risk

Health officials back circumcision in AIDS fight

Circumcision may offer Africa AIDS hope

Circumcision’s Anti-AIDS Effect Found Greater Than First Thought

[SteveLaura 0]

We had a topic about this not too long ago, which is why I posed several questions. Yes, we are beginning to learn about possible health benefits. But is this the reason that it still occurs in this country? Aren't the other reasons posed more likely?

[thetreble 19]

I'm not talking about the reasons behind it, I'm talking about the damaging effects. Please show me the long list of damaging effects or consequences of male circumcision. If someone is going to say BOTH are damaging, and we already have evidence of female circumcision being this way, where is the evidence for the other?