Why are people getting rejected on assets only?

[Larry and Marides 15]

4 minutes ago, pushbrk said:

Noted.  You....WILL.... get a case note suggesting you might want to add a joint sponsor. Ignore that message.  You don't need one.  It's boilerplate even millionaires with insufficient taxable income get. 

Yes I did get that notice. Thanks to you, I have ignored that part. I have seen you mentioning that on other people's posts.

[Larry and Marides 15]

On 11/18/2024 at 11:22 PM, JeanneAdil said:

https://hackinglawpractice.com/uscis-sponsor-income

 

Watch video by attorney Hacking

 

Actually I 864 instructions do say on page 8

 

For purposes of this affidavit, the line for Total Income on IRS Forms 1040 and 1040A will be considered when determining income. For persons filing IRS Form 1040 EZ, the line for adjusted gross income will be considered.   

 

In my thinking (and only mine from family history) assets can easily be wiped out for serious illnesses or accident(s).  personally we have a genetic alpha 1 antitrypson deficency and my brother had lung transplant in Pittsburgh and sister just had a liver transplant in Cleveland Clinic.   Savings and IRS's????   Needed them to live on 

 

the CO will look at assets if provided  but they want yearly income especially when the USC lives in an area of high living costs like Miami,  NYC,  CT,  etc,  125% of poverty guidelines is same for all 48 contiguous but we all know some areas of the US are much higher than others and CO's also know this when looking at the petition and I 864.   

 

As a retiree,  your income will have to support the immigrant's health care insurance so u should be checking the cost in your area and provide proof with the documents that you can afford it.

 

Basically i think immigration should be able to see credit reports too as money is a big issue in marriage. and the immigrant should not have to absorb bad credit upon arrival

I am fully insured by Blue Cross and Blue Shield so your logic is flawed by saying assets can easily be wiped out. ANother flaw in your logic is if people have a serious illness they won't be able to work anyway.

 

[pushbrk 13,104]

4 hours ago, Larry and Marides said:

I am fully insured by Blue Cross and Blue Shield so your logic is flawed by saying assets can easily be wiped out. ANother flaw in your logic is if people have a serious illness they won't be able to work anyway.

 

Some folks employ scare tactics to lure in scary cats.  

[Larry and Marides 15]

On 11/19/2024 at 8:00 AM, Lemonslice said:

Has your spouse been denied?  Or is it an hypothetical question?  Many people qualify on assets; assets have to be liquid, and presented clearly.  Denials I have seen were from non U.S. assets, crypto, non-liquid assets, insufficient assets/documentation of assets... 

Hello, thanks for your reply. Yes it is hypothetical. My assets are cash, stocks and bonds that are liquid and exceed the minimum requirements. My income appears low because I have been withdrawing money from my cash account. Withdrawals from personal accounts that are not an IRA or retirement accounts are not reported as income. 

[spicynujac 38]

On 11/20/2024 at 7:15 PM, Larry and Marides said:

I won't be eligible for social security until July 2025. I retired early.

 

 

Are you retiring through Social Security in July?  If so can you provide the amount of your monthly payout?

If not, you must qualify based on assets alone.  It's not as straightforward or simple, but it's done all the time.

 

As a former loan officer, assets never meant nearly as much to us as income--assets can come and go, be spent, garnished, levied, wasted, invested poorly, gambled, depleted, or even stolen, but an income stream is a stable prediction of future ability to pay.  One can have $80,000 in an account today, and go out and buy an $80,000 car tomorrow and have no money.  The US Treasury generally doesn't even tax or track assets, only income.  

 

But that is merely to say that income is the *preferred* and most secure method of proving ability to pay.  Proving ability to live off assets is not a terribly hard barrier to overcome, particularly for retirees.  In fact, that's typically the only way many retirees have of proving wealth, and it's a common element of many retirement visas in foreign countries, and is done every day.  Based on what you have posted, it seems you are financially qualified based on assets.  The only issue is providing the documentation requested (cash account, proof of account ownership, etc. based on the immigration rules).  

 

Rejections could be for a number of reasons.  I had a tax return rejected because it was missing ONE schedule from the dozens of pages of the return.  The contents of the schedule didn't affect my income threshold at all.  My income alone was well above the qualifying limit, but because I didn't include some obscure schedule (I dont remember--like a $25 stock dividend payment or something silly--which I didn't even need to prove minimum income--the form was rejected.  I finally uploaded all the schedules (twice--it was rejected the second time!!) and was accepted in the end.  I could have freaked out and said "WHY are they REJECTING me in proving my INCOME! I have PLENTY of INCOME" but that wasn't the issue at all... they just required ALL schedules and unless I had all schedules the fact that my salary alone qualified me easily didn't matter.  So it's likely those who were rejected didn't follow the rules.  Just follow the rules fully and make sure you are proving the ability to support based on assets as they have described in the instructions, not just showing a number in a bank account balance.

[Larry and Marides 15]

My wife received a 221g because of my low income. I have substantial assets that are way above the poverty level requirements. All liquid and in brokerage accounts and an IRA.

It's as if the consular didn't even look at the financial documents. My spouse wanted to show them all the financial documents that we brought on paper but he just put his hands up and refuse it even look at him period he didn't even ask any questions as soon as she got to the window she got handed a 221 g

[Larry and Marides 15]

On 1/17/2025 at 1:43 AM, spicynujac said:

 

 

Are you retiring through Social Security in July?  If so can you provide the amount of your monthly payout?

If not, you must qualify based on assets alone.  It's not as straightforward or simple, but it's done all the time.

 

As a former loan officer, assets never meant nearly as much to us as income--assets can come and go, be spent, garnished, levied, wasted, invested poorly, gambled, depleted, or even stolen, but an income stream is a stable prediction of future ability to pay.  One can have $80,000 in an account today, and go out and buy an $80,000 car tomorrow and have no money.  The US Treasury generally doesn't even tax or track assets, only income.  

 

But that is merely to say that income is the *preferred* and most secure method of proving ability to pay.  Proving ability to live off assets is not a terribly hard barrier to overcome, particularly for retirees.  In fact, that's typically the only way many retirees have of proving wealth, and it's a common element of many retirement visas in foreign countries, and is done every day.  Based on what you have posted, it seems you are financially qualified based on assets.  The only issue is providing the documentation requested (cash account, proof of account ownership, etc. based on the immigration rules).  

 

Rejections could be for a number of reasons.  I had a tax return rejected because it was missing ONE schedule from the dozens of pages of the return.  The contents of the schedule didn't affect my income threshold at all.  My income alone was well above the qualifying limit, but because I didn't include some obscure schedule (I dont remember--like a $25 stock dividend payment or something silly--which I didn't even need to prove minimum income--the form was rejected.  I finally uploaded all the schedules (twice--it was rejected the second time!!) and was accepted in the end.  I could have freaked out and said "WHY are they REJECTING me in proving my INCOME! I have PLENTY of INCOME" but that wasn't the issue at all... they just required ALL schedules and unless I had all schedules the fact that my salary alone qualified me easily didn't matter.  So it's likely those who were rejected didn't follow the rules.  Just follow the rules fully and make sure you are proving the ability to support based on assets as they have described in the instructions, not just showing a number in a bank account balance.

My wife received a 221g despite following all the rules as you have stated. I have substantial assets that are way above the poverty level requirements. All liquid and in brokerage accounts and an IRA. Over 30 times the difference between reported income and poverty level. I also own a house that's paid for with a deed. I have been using these assets to support us.

 

It's as if the consular didn't even look at the financial documents. My spouse wanted to show them all the financial documents that we brought on paper but he just put his hands up and refuse it even look at him period he didn't even ask any questions as soon as she got to the window she got handed a 221 g. This consular officer was a Filipino man who didn't speak English and didn't know what liquid assets were. He kept repeating my income shows I'm below poverty level. Everything was uploaded and also printed. He refused to look at the assets. He was focused on income. I'm also temporarily living in the Philippines for 2 years.while awaiting my wife to be approved.

[Larry and Marides 15]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:22 AM, pushbrk said:

The answer to your actual question cannot be offered as a general answer.  I assure you that each person who tries to use assets and fails, is an individual case with it's own unique reason.  Only another case with the same circumstances would be denied for the same reason.  Instead of focusing on possible failure, I suggest you focus on why you will succeed.

 

If you are retired, have Social Security income, and have a large enough IRA to support yourself in the USA, then the person making the public charge decision can see that.  It doesn't have to be this way, but if you can show your IRA is growing, even though you are making withdrawals to support yourself, that's another positive.  But really, a Consular Officer is trained to understand whether the assets are enough to support you and the immigrant or not.  That's what IRA's are for, to support retired people through their retirement years.  It's no rocket science.  If you know you IRA is sufficient, they'll be able to see that too.

That said, the people I've seen having issues with assets only, are those whose asset totals are either marginally qualifying or/and they are trying to use assets not considered "liquid".  An IRA for a retired person, is definitely liquid.  The question is whether it's enough.  You already know if it is or isn't.

Thank you so much for trying to help me. I followed all your advice which is very good and is logical Unfortunately my wife received a 221g which is totally illogical. I have substantial assets that are way above the poverty level requirements. I retired early and have been supporting us on my assets while temporarily living in the Philippines .All assets are liquid and in brokerage accounts and an IRA. Over 30 times the difference between reported income and poverty level. I also own a house that's paid for with a deed. I have been using these assets to support us.

It's as if the consular didn't even look at the financial documents. My spouse wanted to show them all the financial documents that we brought on paper but he just put his hands up and refuse it even look at him period he didn't even ask any questions as soon as she got to the window she got handed a 221 g. This consular officer was a Filipino man who didn't speak English and didn't know what liquid assets were. He kept repeating my income shows I'm below poverty level. Everything was uploaded and also printed. He refused to look at the assets. He was focused on income. I'm also temporarily living in the Philippines for 2 years.while awaiting my wife to be approved.

Sir, I really appreciate all your advice and efforts to help me  Thank you very much.

I have absolutely no joint sponsors. They are afraid to get involved with government paper work and don't want the responsibility, plus they are like me. Retired with low reported income. Its very depressing and a loss of hope. I don't know what to do next?

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:59 AM by Larry and Marides

[Family 4,197]

1 hour ago, Larry and Marides said:

Thank you so much for trying to help me. I followed all your advice which is very good and is logical Unfortunately my wife received a 221g which is totally illogical. I have substantial assets that are way above the poverty level requirements. I retired early and have been supporting us on my assets while temporarily living in the Philippines .All assets are liquid and in brokerage accounts and an IRA. Over 30 times the difference between reported income and poverty level. I also own a house that's paid for with a deed. I have been using these assets to support us.

It's as if the consular didn't even look at the financial documents. My spouse wanted to show them all the financial documents that we brought on paper but he just put his hands up and refuse it even look at him period he didn't even ask any questions as soon as she got to the window she got handed a 221 g. This consular officer was a Filipino man who didn't speak English and didn't know what liquid assets were. He kept repeating my income shows I'm below poverty level. Everything was uploaded and also printed. He refused to look at the assets. He was focused on income. I'm also temporarily living in the Philippines for 2 years.while awaiting my wife to be approved.

Sir, I really appreciate all your advice and efforts to help me  Thank you very much.

I have absolutely no joint sponsors. They are afraid to get involved with government paper work and don't want the responsibility, plus they are like me. Retired with low reported income. Its very depressing and a loss of hope. I don't know what to do next?

 

You just need to submit your I-864 , taxes and assets along and feel free to tell them they issued refusal in error as poverty guidelines are met and exceeded.

‘Just because they did not spell it out for you , using assets is NOT foreclosed and you do NOT need a joint sponsor.

 

It is very very common for CO to flippantly dismiss applicants and often err .  

Just send in what you prepared , it will be accepted.

[Larry and Marides 15]

2 hours ago, Family said:

You just need to submit your I-864 , taxes and assets along and feel free to tell them they issued refusal in error as poverty guidelines are met and exceeded.

‘Just because they did not spell it out for you , using assets is NOT foreclosed and you do NOT need a joint sponsor.

 

It is very very common for CO to flippantly dismiss applicants and often err .  

Just send in what you prepared , it will be accepted.

Thank you 

[jan22 3,064]

18 hours ago, Larry and Marides said:

My wife received a 221g despite following all the rules as you have stated. I have substantial assets that are way above the poverty level requirements. All liquid and in brokerage accounts and an IRA. Over 30 times the difference between reported income and poverty level. I also own a house that's paid for with a deed. I have been using these assets to support us.

 

It's as if the consular didn't even look at the financial documents. My spouse wanted to show them all the financial documents that we brought on paper but he just put his hands up and refuse it even look at him period he didn't even ask any questions as soon as she got to the window she got handed a 221 g. This consular officer was a Filipino man who didn't speak English and didn't know what liquid assets were. He kept repeating my income shows I'm below poverty level. Everything was uploaded and also printed. He refused to look at the assets. He was focused on income. I'm also temporarily living in the Philippines for 2 years.while awaiting my wife to be approved.

Sorry, but there is something “off” about your description of the interview.  There is absolutely no chance that the consular officer didn’t speak English.  ALL consular officers speak English.  And, handed a 221g without any questions?  It is far more likely that the person was a local hire staff member doing intake rather than a consular officer.  What did the 221g ask for?  Just trying to help understand an out-of-the-ordinary interview situation.

[Larry and Marides 15]

6 hours ago, jan22 said:

Sorry, but there is something “off” about your description of the interview.  There is absolutely no chance that the consular officer didn’t speak English.  ALL consular officers speak English.  And, handed a 221g without any questions?  It is far more likely that the person was a local hire staff member doing intake rather than a consular officer.  What did the 221g ask for?  Just trying to help understand an out-of-the-ordinary interview situation.

I'm sorry, I was making an assumption he didn't speak English because the Filipino consular officer at window 60 at the U.S Embassy in Manila refused to speak in English. He would only speak in Tagalog. My wife is very fluent in English and prefers to communicate that way. 
Part 7 "Use of Assets to Supplement Income has a box "For USCIS Use Only" Inside this box is the following statement:

"The total value of all assets, line 10, must equal 5 times (3 times for spouses and children of

USC's, or 1 time for orphans to be formally adopted in the U.S.) the difference between the

poverty guidelines and the sponsor's household income, line 10"

The asset section including the amount on line 10 is significantly higher than 3 times the poverty level. All assets are cash in brokerage and IRA accounts. My house is paid for with title.
221g Letter.    Affidavit of Support from Qualified Joint Sponsor.

According to part 7 I do not need a joint sponsor as the total value of all assets on line 10, must equal 3 times the difference between the poverty guidelines and the sponsor's household income, line 10.

The consular officer told my wife I'm under the poverty level. Obviously he didn't do his due diligence, or doesn't read or understand the form, as per their policy, I am not below poverty level.
 

[jan22 3,064]

If I followed your response, what the 221g asked for was a joint sponsor.

Consular officers look at the “totality” of the situation.  Spicynujac gave a good summary on why assets only can be of concern.  For example, if the worst happens (recession or depression hits, the stock market crashes, a catastrophic illness or accident leaves an individual with huge medical debt for costs not covered by insurance: etc.), is there any income stream that will help sustain the family?  Is the sponsor likely to be readily re-employable if necessary (age, skill set, educational background or training, etc)?  
 

The house may or may not be considered as part if your assets — may not be considered “liquid” in a real estate market where houses don’t sell quickly.  And, more importantly, if it is/will be your primary residence, it will not count as an asset if it leaves you homeless.  (If you still want to include it anyway, you would need a professional appraisal of its current value.)

 

You would also need to have documented restrictions or penalties, if any, for withdrawal from the brokerage and IRA funds.  Documentation of not only the current value, but something that shows the historic growth/balances of the funds, would be beneficial.  It would document how the funds, even with your current withdrawals, remain a consistent level of support for your family’s future.

 

Hope this helps to see why using only assets can require a more careful look at your entire financial situation.  Sounds like you have documentation to support your assets, but the consular officer wanted/needed more time to review, so issued the 221g — likely hoping that you would just submit a joint sponsor and his job easier!
 

Assuming there is no way to get a joint sponsor, I would urge you to re-submit your I-864 with all of the documentation of your assets that I mentioned.  If you have a current appraisal of the house and want it to be included as an asset, I would recommend describing in a cover letter that, while you plan to reside in the home, should it be necessary in the future you would sell it and downsize.  Lastly, I would include in the cover letter your plan to start collecting Social Security in July.  You should be able to get documentation of what your benefit will be from SSA.  That will show that you will still have an income stream outside your assets.

 

Hope you get this all sorted out soon!

 

[PGA 259]

On 11/18/2024 at 10:24 AM, PGA said:

Well, somebody from the consulate will probably never tell you the reason so all you're left with is "heard." I just have guesses. First, I guess the COs are given a stack of visa applications every morning to process through. Then, I guess that said CO doesn't really want to or have time to go through a stack of asset documents such as bank account statements, stock holdings, etc (in addition to all of the paperwork already inherent in the visa process). Finally, I guess that a CO who may have negative consequences for making a "wrong decision," may feel a bit more confident knowing that another 3rd party (a joint sponsor) is also willing to put their neck out for said visa applicant. 

 

These are just a few guesses and I doubt they even come close to encompassing all the possible guesses out there but, in my mind, these seem most logical. My recommendation is, if you are using assets only, to try it and see but also understand that they may require a joint sponsor so it's better to have one lined up and it will add more time to the visa process. 

I'll just stand by my original hypothesis here. Given your description it sounds pretty much exactly how my wife's interview went and that was in Lima. I provided the documents in advance, my wife brought the documents with her and the CO wouldn't consider any of it. In fact, the 221g was already in a pile with a bunch of others before she even was called to the window.

 

As others have suggested, if you have absolutely no way of gathering a joint sponsor, I would try resubmitting again everything you have and hope they reconsider. In any case I wish you the best of luck.

[Larry and Marides 15]

10 hours ago, jan22 said:

If I followed your response, what the 221g asked for was a joint sponsor.

Consular officers look at the “totality” of the situation.  Spicynujac gave a good summary on why assets only can be of concern.  For example, if the worst happens (recession or depression hits, the stock market crashes, a catastrophic illness or accident leaves an individual with huge medical debt for costs not covered by insurance: etc.), is there any income stream that will help sustain the family?  Is the sponsor likely to be readily re-employable if necessary (age, skill set, educational background or training, etc)?  
 

The house may or may not be considered as part if your assets — may not be considered “liquid” in a real estate market where houses don’t sell quickly.  And, more importantly, if it is/will be your primary residence, it will not count as an asset if it leaves you homeless.  (If you still want to include it anyway, you would need a professional appraisal of its current value.)

 

You would also need to have documented restrictions or penalties, if any, for withdrawal from the brokerage and IRA funds.  Documentation of not only the current value, but something that shows the historic growth/balances of the funds, would be beneficial.  It would document how the funds, even with your current withdrawals, remain a consistent level of support for your family’s future.

 

Hope this helps to see why using only assets can require a more careful look at your entire financial situation.  Sounds like you have documentation to support your assets, but the consular officer wanted/needed more time to review, so issued the 221g — likely hoping that you would just submit a joint sponsor and his job easier!
 

Assuming there is no way to get a joint sponsor, I would urge you to re-submit your I-864 with all of the documentation of your assets that I mentioned.  If you have a current appraisal of the house and want it to be included as an asset, I would recommend describing in a cover letter that, while you plan to reside in the home, should it be necessary in the future you would sell it and downsize.  Lastly, I would include in the cover letter your plan to start collecting Social Security in July.  You should be able to get documentation of what your benefit will be from SSA.  That will show that you will still have an income stream outside your assets.

 

Hope you get this all sorted out soon!

 

Thank you for your information. Please don't be offended by my response I'm kind of directing this towards the consular officers because it was a shock. 2 years of making sure every document was in order just for her to be rejected in one minute. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your response just to help a complete stranger. Your advice is awesome.

A financial advisor told me that consular officers don't know how to analyze complex financial documents so they just issue a 221g which is easier.  Regarding the totality of the situation, significant assets are actually more secure than a job.  I have enough that if I just put them in a checking account, they would last 50 years. They are in a brokerage account so these assets will outlast me. Companies cut jobs all the time. During my whole career I have been laid off 5 times from several different companies. I was an Electronics Engineer in the defense sector. Programs get cut resulting in layoffs. I finally worked at a hospital as a Biomedical Equipment Engineer. My skill set is in demand, so if I needed to work again it wouldn't be a  problem. Jobs are not a guarantee of income. You can be be approved today and quit or get laid off tomorrow. I know this won't count but my wife will be working as a nurse at the hospital where I used to work. Severe shortage of nurses.

Regarding a catastrophic illness my spouse and I are fully insured with Blue Cross Blue Shield medical insurance .

My house is paid for with no mortgage. I'm not relying on my house as part of my assets, as I have enough liquid assets that the house is irrelevant.

I documented with official brokerage letters that restrictions and penalties are not present for withdrawal from the brokerage and IRA funds.  I Documented the current value, and  the historic growth/balances of the funds for the past 12 months and an average balance document for the past 10 years.  would be beneficial.  II documented that my funds, even with my current withdrawals are actually increasing because I have a my funds managed by a brokerage. All accounts are jointly held.

I Documented all assets in simplified form in a cover letter. Also included was my social security account documenting that I'm qualified to receive SS in July. 

I wonder if he really looked at all the documents?

Thank you for your input

Edited Saturday at 02:04 AM by Larry and Marides