I AM SO MAD!! This is total BS...

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm really confused now. So they are going to do away with the CFDs in October? It sounds like a "temporary" driver's license could be just as bad though.

I still believe that the only thing that should be offered to a LEGAL permanent resident is a full driver's license that would be offered to a citizen. As I said before, (and I think everyone knows except for the dumb Tennessee state legislators), a LPR has the exact same rights as a USC. If they can deny my wife a driver's license, next time they could be trying to deny me one.......

Your wife has some of the same rights. Most of them. Of course she can't vote or become President of the United States. And DHS has juris over her presence in the US until she naturalizes if she ever crosses hairs with the law. But for the most part, an LPR is afforded the constitutional protections we citizens have - the most important - in my opinion - being due process.

The problem you are seeing is Federal Law v. State Law. Again by nature of what we are - the United States of America - the federal government is limited constitutionally as to its power over laws within the States. The founding fathers set it up that way on purpose. If you remember they were very pissed off at a certain British king.

Therefore, the States do have power to write and interpret their own laws so far as they don't violate the Bill of Rights. And apparently Tennessee has elected to define a 'legal permanent resident' in a different manner than the federal government does. Now, exactly how they can get away with this and whether or not it would have legs if it were challenged in Federal Court (something that could be done by a determined and very patient citizen) is doubtful in my opinion.

This is a VERY good example of why immigration law is not for the layperson, or even for the faint-of-heart attorney. The code is complex and coupled with the rights of States to interpret it - well there's just lots of room for error.

I do believe you are right that this 'temporary' drivers license may be nearly as worthless as a driving certificate to the person who holds one. That question might best be posed to a litigator for an insurance company, who no doubt would have an opinion as to how well protected the holder of a 'temp' drivers license would be protected, and what level of risk his company would be exposed to when insuring such individuals.

[elgringo 0]

The problem you are seeing is Federal Law v. State Law. Again by nature of what we are - the United States of America - the federal government is limited constitutionally as to its power over laws within the States. The founding fathers set it up that way on purpose. If you remember they were very pissed off at a certain British king.

Thats not true. Federal law ALWAYS trumps state laws. But there are some thing that the Federal govt leaves up to the states to decide, such as issuing driver's licenses.

I believe that Tennessee's refusal to issue a driver's license to conditional residents would not stand up in a court of law. Read this on the USCIS website:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/men...00045f3d6a1RCRD

Note that it says, "Some of you may be CONDITIONAL RESIDENTS. This page applies equally to you while you are in conditional resident status. The difference between you and an unconditioned permanent resident is that your permanent resident status will expire in two years from when it was given, unless you successfully petition to have the condition removed."

Also: "The Permanent Resident Card (either unconditioned or conditioned) can be used to prove employment eligibility in the US when completing the Form I-9 for a new employer. It can also be used to apply for a Social Security Card and a state issued driver’s license."

I should print that out and carry it back down to the DMV.... heh.

[SirLancelot 1]

The problem you are seeing is Federal Law v. State Law. Again by nature of what we are - the United States of America - the federal government is limited constitutionally as to its power over laws within the States. The founding fathers set it up that way on purpose. If you remember they were very pissed off at a certain British king.

Thats not true. Federal law ALWAYS trumps state laws. But there are some thing that the Federal govt leaves up to the states to decide, such as issuing driver's licenses.

I believe that Tennessee's refusal to issue a driver's license to conditional residents would not stand up in a court of law. Read this on the USCIS website:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/men...00045f3d6a1RCRD

Note that it says, "Some of you may be CONDITIONAL RESIDENTS. This page applies equally to you while you are in conditional resident status. The difference between you and an unconditioned permanent resident is that your permanent resident status will expire in two years from when it was given, unless you successfully petition to have the condition removed."

Also: "The Permanent Resident Card (either unconditioned or conditioned) can be used to prove employment eligibility in the US when completing the Form I-9 for a new employer. It can also be used to apply for a Social Security Card and a state issued driver’s license."

I should print that out and carry it back down to the DMV.... heh.

Yes, I think you should do that, and I believe you may prevail.

Also, as many have suggested, you should go to another DMV, but for whatever reason, you don't seem amenable to that suggestion.

Carlos a few posts above wrote:

I live in TN, and I had some trouble when trying to get my DL in Memphis last year. I was able to get a CFD with my EAD card but as soon as I got my conditional green card I was able to get the DL, and it won’t expire when the conditional GC expires.

I’ve noticed that people at the DMV at Shelby Dr knew more about these rules than the ones working at Summer Ave. I would go to another DMV, or try to talk to a supervisor.

[rebeccajo 14]

Thats not true. Federal law ALWAYS trumps state laws. But there are some thing that the Federal govt leaves up to the states to decide, such as issuing driver's licenses.

It's not a case of 'trumping'. It's a case of who has jurisdiction where and the matter at hand. Most of the boundaries are clearly defined.

I was perhaps unclear. When I said "Fed law vs. State law" I meant the common misconception by laypeople in confusing the two.

That's all. Not trying to quarrel. Just clarifying what I meant.

Edited August 11, 2007 by rebeccajo

[elgringo 0]

Well I sent an email yesterday to the TN immigrant rights coalition which is based in Nashville, and they sent me back this email today:

Thanks for your email, and I certainly understand your frustration. The short answer is, the TN General Assembly eliminated the certificate for driving program this legislative session. Starting in October, your wife will eligible to receive a regular driver's license. It will be only be valid for as long as her conditional green card is valid.

When the governor initiated the certificate program in 2004, our coalition advocated against issuing these second class documents to immigrants who are lawfully present, but "temporary." In fact, there is a pending civil rights lawsuit against the governor on your wife's behalf (which is now probably moot). In the years since, we have introduced and advocated for legislation that would have corrected the situation for lawful residents. Unfortunately, the legislature chose instead to eliminate the program altogether, which means that tens of thousands of undocumented immigrants now have no access to any driving safety document or accident insurance. We feel this has made our roads less safe.

The upside, of course, is people in your wife's situation will no longer be forced to carry a second class document.

Best,

Stephen

Stephen Fotopulos

Policy Director

Tennessee Immigrant & Refugee Rights Coalition

So it looks like that they will be doing away with the CFDs in October. So according to this guy my wife should be able to get a real driver's license then. Yippeee!

[rebeccajo 14]

I wonder what the geniuses in Tennessee will do about people such as your wife when they apply to lift conditions. Most people walk around carrying what looks like an expired card until the 10 year card arrives. Which sometimes takes ages.

Sorry. Didn't mean to take away from your euphoria. But it might be a good question to ask the powers that be.

[reach449 2]

OMG!! What a thread. I just spent an half hour reading all of this. I LIVE in Tennessee also and my fiancee will be arriving soon. I moved to Tennessee from California because of my job and believe me they do things different here in the south! Some things, such as this, I will never figure out the logic.

After reading all of this it seems my wife will be able to get a DL in October. I am glad that I found this thread becasue I thought it would be relative simple to get a DL for her. Boy, was I wrong! Thanks elgringo for all of your help and insight! I can see you have put a lot of time into this matter. Congrats are in order also. You sure have helped me when the time comes to get my wife a DL.

reach449

[elgringo 0]

Thanks reach.

Well, I thought it was going to be relatively simple also. We took my wife to do the knowledge portion of the test back in May when she got her EAD. I could understand why they gave her a CFD then. An EAD doesnt confer any type of residency status or anything like that to its holder. That was fine, whatever. But I was always thinking, "As soon as she has her green card we can go and get a real license." In fact, she waited way longer than necessary to go and get her DL specifically because we were waiting for her GC to arrive. She could have passed the driving part and gotten a CFD to drive back in freaking June if I would have known that a GC wouldnt let her get a real license.

I'm gonna try and gather all the information thats available about this and go back down there on October 1st and DEMAND that they give my wife a real license and stop the discrimination. (I hope I dont get thrown out of the DMV, hehehe.)

[TracyTN 237]

Don't have time to read this entire thread, but a certificate of driving is the same as a license EXCEPT you can't use it for ID purposes. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

[Dr_LHA 3]

Don't have time to read this entire thread, but a certificate of driving is the same as a license EXCEPT you can't use it for ID purposes. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Perhaps if you read the thread then you'd understand better. To paraphrase: You can't rent a car with a CFD and insurers like State Farm won't insure you if you have a CFD instead of a drivers license, and if you can get insurance its often at hiked rates. That and its treating legal immigrants to this country like 2nd class citizens in a way that no other state does. These reasons and more are why TN has had the good sense to repeal the law.

[elgringo 0]

Don't have time to read this entire thread, but a certificate of driving is the same as a license EXCEPT you can't use it for ID purposes. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Like Dr_LHA said, the "fuss" is that there are several things that you CANT do with a CFD, as he mentioned. Also, the main thing that makes me want to "fuss" is the fact that its just downright discriminatory to offer a legal permanent resident, who has all the same rights as a citizen (except the right to vote) a 2nd class document.....

[Yodrak 7]

elgringo,

As you say, the federal government leaves the issuance of drivers licenses to state law.

The USCIS statement that a Green Card can be used when applying for a state drivers license falls far short of being a federal law that requires the states to issue a drivers license to a conditional LPR who has passed the required tests for a license. The states set their own requirements for the issuance of drivers licenses and for what they consider to be acceptable documentation (except when a federal law says that certain items of documentation cannot be used).

Yodrak

Thats not true. Federal law ALWAYS trumps state laws. But there are some thing that the Federal govt leaves up to the states to decide, such as issuing driver's licenses.

I believe that Tennessee's refusal to issue a driver's license to conditional residents would not stand up in a court of law. Read this on the USCIS website:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/men...00045f3d6a1RCRD

Note that it says, "Some of you may be CONDITIONAL RESIDENTS. This page applies equally to you while you are in conditional resident status. The difference between you and an unconditioned permanent resident is that your permanent resident status will expire in two years from when it was given, unless you successfully petition to have the condition removed."

Also: "The Permanent Resident Card (either unconditioned or conditioned) can be used to prove employment eligibility in the US when completing the Form I-9 for a new employer. It can also be used to apply for a Social Security Card and a state issued driver's license."

I should print that out and carry it back down to the DMV.... heh.

[elgringo 0]

As you say, the federal government leaves the issuance of drivers licenses to state law.

The USCIS statement that a Green Card can be used when applying for a state drivers license falls far short of being a federal law that requires the states to issue a drivers license to a conditional LPR who has passed the required tests for a license. The states set their own requirements for the issuance of drivers licenses and for what they consider to be acceptable documentation (except when a federal law says that certain items of documentation cannot be used).

Yodrak

Well if a green card isnt good enough to get a license, then whats to stop them from saying that a US birth certificate or passport isnt good enough? Next thing you know nobody in TN will be able to get a DL.

[Allie&Leo 0]

El Gringo -

My husband got his drivers license today with his conditional greencard. He went to Franklin, TN DMV. I wasn't there but he said just showed them his Certificate for Driving License(which he got when he first go here) and his greencard. Doesn't expire till 2010.

I will send you a PM just in case you don't see this post.

Go try again,

Allie

[elgringo 0]

We are gonna go down there on Oct 16th, which is the next day that both me and my wife will be available to go somewhere together on a weekday. (I hate working and going to school..... )

I called the 1-800 number and it said that she will only be eligible to get a temporary license though, so we'll see what happens. I would be a LOT happier with a temp license tho than with a CFD. A temp license is exactly the same as a real one (can be used as ID etc) except it expires when her GC expires instead of lasting the full time like mine does..... Still, way better than a CFD tho and almost not discriminatory.