Whites a minority in 10 percent of U.S. counties

[Scott & Lai 12]

Integration and assimilation are two different concepts. Integration is 'E pluribus Unum' (sp) ...In many we are one. Strength in diversity. I'm all for integration and historically, migrants tend to integrate when they are accepted by society.

Assimilation would be where everyone would dump their cultural identities and fuse with whatever is the standard 'American' culture. When you don't accept people's cultural differences or allow them to be different, you put them on the defensive and they're less likely to want to integrate into society.

Actually, E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one." Originally, it referred to the several states becoming one united country. In modern contexts, it can refer to people from many lands/cultures becoming one nation, one people. Unfortunately, what we see today is increasing tribalism, or a reverse of the motto to E Unum pluribus.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Integration and assimilation are two different concepts. Integration is 'E pluribus Unum' (sp) ...In many we are one. Strength in diversity. I'm all for integration and historically, migrants tend to integrate when they are accepted by society.

Assimilation would be where everyone would dump their cultural identities and fuse with whatever is the standard 'American' culture. When you don't accept people's cultural differences or allow them to be different, you put them on the defensive and they're less likely to want to integrate into society.

Actually, E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one." Originally, it referred to the several states becoming one united country. In modern contexts, it can refer to people from many lands/cultures becoming one nation, one people. Unfortunately, what we see today is increasing tribalism, or a reverse of the motto to E Unum pluribus.

Thanks, Scott. The idea though remains the same. We can be many different people from different walks of life, but united as citizens of this great country. In other words, we don't all have to dress the same, talk the same, look the same, or listen to the same music. Integration is important, but assimilation should be left to the Borgs.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No - you make sweeping generalisations, then when challenged on them - go off in 50 different directions, eventually taking the original comments completely out of context

Hence comments in a discussion about crime and socioeconomics - suddenly get quote by you in a completely different thread about ethnic diversity. Rather dishonest, wouldn't you say?

And here we go round in circles again..

And actually you've trotted out that "economics and engineering" line several times to my knowledge.

The one thing I have noticed in this forum is how certain people can go on and on about a topic they have little or no knowledge in. You guys have disputed every single piece of evidence while providing none of your own. "It's wrong, it's BS its 100th rate anecdote etc, your racist, what would you know. Wild tangent, no wonder the kids are screwed up bla bla bla". Well apart from the usual rhetoric, personal insults, that 'one' link and the stock standard accusations.

There is no point in discussing anything unconventional period. The end!!

Where is this evidence? Guess I must have missed it when I was reading about "gang-bangers" driving $50,000K Lexuses, and how people from outside the US 'hate' the food in Los Angeles.

[Marilyn. 340]

No - you make sweeping generalisations, then when challenged on them - go off in 50 different directions, eventually taking the original comments completely out of context

Hence comments in a discussion about crime and socioeconomics - suddenly get quote by you in a completely different thread about ethnic diversity. Rather dishonest, wouldn't you say?

And here we go round in circles again..

And actually you've trotted out that "economics and engineering" line several times to my knowledge.

The one thing I have noticed in this forum is how certain people can go on and on about a topic they have little or no knowledge in. You guys have disputed every single piece of evidence while providing none of your own. "It's wrong, it's BS its 100th rate anecdote etc, your racist, what would you know. Wild tangent, no wonder the kids are screwed up bla bla bla". Well apart from the usual rhetoric, personal insults, that 'one' link and the stock standard accusations.

There is no point in discussing anything unconventional period. The end!!

Where is this evidence? Guess I must have missed it when I was reading about "gang-bangers" driving $50,000K Lexuses, and how people from outside the US 'hate' the food in Los Angeles.

actually i think he said California

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No - you make sweeping generalisations, then when challenged on them - go off in 50 different directions, eventually taking the original comments completely out of context

Hence comments in a discussion about crime and socioeconomics - suddenly get quote by you in a completely different thread about ethnic diversity. Rather dishonest, wouldn't you say?

And here we go round in circles again..

And actually you've trotted out that "economics and engineering" line several times to my knowledge.

The one thing I have noticed in this forum is how certain people can go on and on about a topic they have little or no knowledge in. You guys have disputed every single piece of evidence while providing none of your own. "It's wrong, it's BS its 100th rate anecdote etc, your racist, what would you know. Wild tangent, no wonder the kids are screwed up bla bla bla". Well apart from the usual rhetoric, personal insults, that 'one' link and the stock standard accusations.

There is no point in discussing anything unconventional period. The end!!

Where is this evidence? Guess I must have missed it when I was reading about "gang-bangers" driving $50,000K Lexuses, and how people from outside the US 'hate' the food in Los Angeles.

actually i think he said California

Even better.

[Sinergy 3]

wow, amazing things happen when im asleep

[thetreble 19]

I guess none of us are educated either. You say things like, "all of these people talk about stuff they know nothing about.." Would you like me to state my credentials as well so that at least you might feel what I say is credible?

PS- I knew a lot of engineers at uni who couldn't even write an essay. Not an engineer's forte to collect their thoughts and write them in a concise manner.

Also, when you are living right in the middle of what ever it is that we are talking about in this thead, you obviously have a different take on it then someone who is sitting in a cute neighbourhood with an almost entirely white population. I have asked you to talk about your experiences with living in crime ridden areas. You ignored my invitation so until I can get a better understanding of how you would know, from first hand experience, about what it is ACTUALLY like to live in a community where being white makes you the minority and where there is a high crime rate, I can't really take anything you say seriously. You tell us about police officers you know or quote random experts, but what I want to know is your first hand experience. I have not taken anything personally in this entire thread like you have stated about many of us calling you out. I have come to dispute what you have said because you ignore a lot of what other people are trying to tell you that I think is knowledgeable, decent information. You make a first post with a confederate flag around your face and say "well I expected those insults and reactions coming my way..." But yet you will not conceed at all in a slew of personal opinions that make a lot of people ill.

I have nothing against you. I'm sure you are a nice person and an intelligent one. But at some point in everyone's life, they have to realize that

A)They don't know everything about everything;

B ) There are others who know more, whether researcher or first hand experience, than you do on certain issues;

C)That making generalizations about groups of people is not an educated and insightful way about going about something. Taking a single article and running around with it saying, "look look! this is exactly what is happening, i knew it! It must be true!". That is not research.

I live less than 5 miles away from Newark and go there to eat all the time. (AMAZING Portuguese food!) I know young adults that are pulled between getting their life straight and gangs. People in our area of Jersey like VJTroll hear it every day on the news. I just think you may have a very fizzled perception of what these black kids in crime/poverty stricken areas are like and why they are the way they are.

Edited August 10, 2007 by thetreble

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That whole area of Jersey is a mixture of good and bad neighborhoods - we used to live in Elizabeth and up at the north and east ends it is relatively decent, but a mile towards the downtown area - its dirty, dilapidated and crime ridden.

Same holds true for Newark - its actually a pretty diverse city, but within that the crime tends to be associated with specific neighborhoods, rather than some sort of general malaise.

From the Wikipedia entry (from which people are free to look at the referenced articles in the footnotes).

Poverty remains a consistent problem in Newark, despite its revitalization in recent years. The 1967 riots resulted in a significant population loss — attributed to white flight — which continued from the 1970s through to the 1990s. The city lost over 100,000 residents between 1960 and 1990.

The median income for a household in the city was $26,913, and the median income for a family was $30,781. Males had a median income of $29,748 versus $25,734 for females. The per capita income for the city was $13,009. 28.4% of the population and 25.5% of families were below the poverty line. 36.6% of those under the age of 18 and 24.1% of those 65 and older were living below the poverty line. In 2003, the city's unemployment rate was 12%.

In the year 2006, Newark topped its record of homicides at 106.[30] With three times the number of homicides per capita as New York, Newark remains as one of the most violent cities in the country.[30] The city is on pace to match or break its homicide record again in 2007.

The city's mayor, Cory Booker, is a member of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition[31], a bi-partisan group with a stated goal of "making the public safer by getting illegal guns off the streets." The Coalition is co-chaired by Boston Mayor Thomas Menino and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

In Newark, as in other cities, the rise in homicides and other violent crimes occurs mostly in low-income, minority neighborhoods, where guns are plentiful and the narcotics trade is flourishing. In many cases, both perpetrators and victims have criminal pasts that involve drugs. Police note that guns are used in 90 percent of Newark’s homicides; a fundamental challenge is reducing their abundance.

[Caladan 19]

Integration and assimilation are two different concepts. Integration is 'E pluribus Unum' (sp) ...In many we are one. Strength in diversity. I'm all for integration and historically, migrants tend to integrate when they are accepted by society.

Assimilation would be where everyone would dump their cultural identities and fuse with whatever is the standard 'American' culture. When you don't accept people's cultural differences or allow them to be different, you put them on the defensive and they're less likely to want to integrate into society.

Actually, E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one." Originally, it referred to the several states becoming one united country. In modern contexts, it can refer to people from many lands/cultures becoming one nation, one people. Unfortunately, what we see today is increasing tribalism, or a reverse of the motto to E Unum pluribus.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if assimilation has ever really been what's happened. It's certainly been held up as an ideal, but if you look at what actually happened, there's never been a case of an immigrant group that came here and became whatever the standard was (Pilgrims? Englishmen?) by dumping all of their culture. People worried about the Italians and the Irish because they were Catholic and served a foreign Church and had so many children and they were dirty gangsters (Italians) or dirty drunks (Irish). The prejudice was real. My grandfather introduced himself, when he was courting my grandmother, as Tom, because he didn't want to be known as Natale.

These days no one would worry about the Irish Catholic menace but it was still an issue as recently as 1960 when Kennedy ran for President, having to assure the voters he wasn't too Catholic. And in some ways, they didn't assimilate. American culture adapted. People celebrate St. Patrick's Day because they're 1/16th Irish on their mother's side, and a movie about a Mafia family is a classic of American cinema. Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in America.

Did they assimilate? Or did they take over?

[thetreble 19]

Yep. That's what we do in jersey. We step around the bad parts in trying to be safe. Sometimes it is impossible. There are really nice areas of places like newark and elizabeth, but you go from it being okay to it being troubling in a matter of seconds some times. We live right on the elizabeth/roselle park border...in a nicer end...and I feel pretty ok.

Newark though is suffering pretty bad in terms of crime. It is all about gun crime. A couple months ago I almost got in a car accident because someone had stolen a car from our area, tried to drive it to newark (a hub for stolen cars) and was driving so fast on Rt. 22 (major route in NJ and PA) that he hit the median. Well he jumped out of the car and ran pretty fast leaving the car right int he middle of the road. I was driving towards home on 22 going 40m/hr and all of a sudden jumped on the breaks. There was the car, sideways, right in the middle of the two lanes just sitting there by itself The police didn't even know about it yet. I almost killed myself and the person in front of me who also jammed on the breaks.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yep. That's what we do in jersey. We step around the bad parts in trying to be safe. Sometimes it is impossible. There are really nice areas of places like newark and elizabeth, but you go from it being okay to it being troubling in a matter of seconds some times. We live right on the elizabeth/roselle park border...in a nicer end...and I feel pretty ok.

Newark though is suffering pretty bad in terms of crime. It is all about gun crime. A couple months ago I almost got in a car accident because someone had stolen a car from our area, tried to drive it to newark (a hub for stolen cars) and was driving so fast on Rt. 22 (major route in NJ and PA) that he hit the median. Well he jumped out of the car and ran pretty fast leaving the car right int he middle of the road. I was driving towards home on 22 going 40m/hr and all of a sudden jumped on the breaks. There was the car, sideways, right in the middle of the two lanes just sitting there by itself The police didn't even know about it yet. I almost killed myself and the person in front of me who also jammed on the breaks.

That’s certainly true – we have a GPS navigation system, and first time we got it we didn’t think that the quickest way to get somewhere might not be the ‘best’ way to get there. A couple of turns off of Morris Avenue we ended up in an extremely rough looking part of Newark – complete with cars up on bricks, boarded up houses and roads that looked like they hadn’t been resurfaced in decades. On the radio next day we heard that there had been a mass shooting in that neighborhood – 5 people got shot to death in an apartment, along with the cat and the dog.

Same thing happened back when we were living in California - took the wrong turn off of Sunset Strip and ended up an area where a rather suspicious looking guy was directing traffic away from a residential street, carrying a bottle with a rag stuck in the top.

Took us over an hour to get out of there and when we finally did - we drove by an apartment complex which was surrounded by what looked like an entire police division, complete with two helicopters circling overhead.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Number 6

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Integration and assimilation are two different concepts. Integration is 'E pluribus Unum' (sp) ...In many we are one. Strength in diversity. I'm all for integration and historically, migrants tend to integrate when they are accepted by society.

Assimilation would be where everyone would dump their cultural identities and fuse with whatever is the standard 'American' culture. When you don't accept people's cultural differences or allow them to be different, you put them on the defensive and they're less likely to want to integrate into society.

Actually, E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one." Originally, it referred to the several states becoming one united country. In modern contexts, it can refer to people from many lands/cultures becoming one nation, one people. Unfortunately, what we see today is increasing tribalism, or a reverse of the motto to E Unum pluribus.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if assimilation has ever really been what's happened. It's certainly been held up as an ideal, but if you look at what actually happened, there's never been a case of an immigrant group that came here and became whatever the standard was (Pilgrims? Englishmen?) by dumping all of their culture. People worried about the Italians and the Irish because they were Catholic and served a foreign Church and had so many children and they were dirty gangsters (Italians) or dirty drunks (Irish). The prejudice was real. My grandfather introduced himself, when he was courting my grandmother, as Tom, because he didn't want to be known as Natale.

These days no one would worry about the Irish Catholic menace but it was still an issue as recently as 1960 when Kennedy ran for President, having to assure the voters he wasn't too Catholic. And in some ways, they didn't assimilate. American culture adapted. People celebrate St. Patrick's Day because they're 1/16th Irish on their mother's side, and a movie about a Mafia family is a classic of American cinema. Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in America.

Did they assimilate? Or did they take over?

Which is a wonderful thing about our country - the multitude of cultural influences. I suppose this brings us back to part of Boo-Yah's argument that some of those outside influences have a negative impact on the culture as a whole. If, for example, the Italians brought with them the mafia, was their culture a negative influence? You have to balance it with all the other cultural influences they brought with them, like their delicious cuisine and their loudness.

...and somebody needs to bring Boo-Yah to LA for a week...take him to dine at the various ethnic restaurants. Doe anybody know how to get a hold of Dr. Phil?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Has anyone seen any of the anti-immigrant propaganda from the late 19th - early 20th century? They have a lot of it displayed in the Ellis Island museum. Unsurprisingly 'assimilation' and other sentiments expressed toward the Irish back then are not too dissimilar to the accusations being directed at minorities and other immigrant groups today.

[Sinergy 3]

Integration and assimilation are two different concepts. Integration is 'E pluribus Unum' (sp) ...In many we are one. Strength in diversity. I'm all for integration and historically, migrants tend to integrate when they are accepted by society.

Assimilation would be where everyone would dump their cultural identities and fuse with whatever is the standard 'American' culture. When you don't accept people's cultural differences or allow them to be different, you put them on the defensive and they're less likely to want to integrate into society.

Actually, E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one." Originally, it referred to the several states becoming one united country. In modern contexts, it can refer to people from many lands/cultures becoming one nation, one people. Unfortunately, what we see today is increasing tribalism, or a reverse of the motto to E Unum pluribus.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if assimilation has ever really been what's happened. It's certainly been held up as an ideal, but if you look at what actually happened, there's never been a case of an immigrant group that came here and became whatever the standard was (Pilgrims? Englishmen?) by dumping all of their culture. People worried about the Italians and the Irish because they were Catholic and served a foreign Church and had so many children and they were dirty gangsters (Italians) or dirty drunks (Irish). The prejudice was real. My grandfather introduced himself, when he was courting my grandmother, as Tom, because he didn't want to be known as Natale.

These days no one would worry about the Irish Catholic menace but it was still an issue as recently as 1960 when Kennedy ran for President, having to assure the voters he wasn't too Catholic. And in some ways, they didn't assimilate. American culture adapted. People celebrate St. Patrick's Day because they're 1/16th Irish on their mother's side, and a movie about a Mafia family is a classic of American cinema. Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in America.

Did they assimilate? Or did they take over?

Which is a wonderful thing about our country - the multitude of cultural influences. I suppose this brings us back to part of Boo-Yah's argument that some of those outside influences have a negative impact on the culture as a whole. If, for example, the Italians brought with them the mafia, was their culture a negative influence? You have to balance it with all the other cultural influences they brought with them, like their delicious cuisine and their loudness.

...and somebody needs to bring Boo-Yah to LA for a week...take him to dine at the various ethnic restaurants. Doe anybody know how to get a hold of Dr. Phil?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Has anyone seen any of the anti-immigrant propaganda from the late 19th - early 20th century? They have a lot of it displayed in the Ellis Island museum. Unsurprisingly 'assimilation' and other sentiments expressed toward the Irish back then are not too dissimilar to the accusations being directed at minorities and other immigrant groups today.

Yes. I think Boo-Yah's sentiments are an exception rather than the rule though. He's really an anomoly - being a foreigner himself even in Australia and then coming here to this country to complain about the lack of assimilation of other foreigners.