A request

[scandal 951]

This thread is a classic example of someone who is relatively new asking a rather innocuous question (is there a bias against a nationality) that sure, has been asked countless times and is only being asked out of frustration getting the full-on smackdown by our chorus of "newb/noob" bashers:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=3061526

I checked to see if it had been linked for an attack to be launched and lo and behold someone had:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=3061564

I wonder who the OP is going to feel the next time she needs to post a legitimate question?

But hey, it's all just fun and games, it's not like we are dealing with people's lives here.

Hmmm. Ok. This is apparently about me. Someone PM'd me to suggest I look at the discussion in this thread. There seems to be a consensus here amongst many of you that we pwners are playing too rough (We prefer the term 'pwning' to 'bashing'. Has it gotten excessive on some occasions? Probably. Yes. Should it be toned down? Maybe. I submit below the "rules of engagement" that I personally play by, or at least try to play by. Have a look -- see if you don't think this is reasonable. Note that the vast majority of innocent newbies (truly newcomers to VJ, just wanting help, as all of us once did) - are in category 1, and I entirely agree deserve to be treated sympathetically. Most of the rest are Category 2 people, still deserve respect. Category 3 and down... and we have such, I personally believe THEY are the ones who degrade the value of VJ as a resource. Are we a vigilante squad, by deciding to "harass" them? You could say that. But VJ is a peer community. Just as pushbrk or Gary&Ala or Bobby take it on themselves to "expert" on immigration questions -- no one ever appointed them -- who is to say that we pwners shouldn't decide which corner of the peer-helping effort we feel needs tackling? Well -- the mods and Ewok can certainly make that call. But not those of you who are VJ members just like we are.

Myself, personally, I don't post all that much on immigration topics. I am active on Thai regional forums. I used to be very active on the AP@NVC thread, enough to have actually donated my time and effort to create a tracking list for those of us who unfortunately got stuck there (see the link in my sig). Otherwise I generally stick to OT. The "Noobz" thread is as much (if not more) a social hangout as it is a pwning squad. We poke as much fun at ourselves as we do at anyone (I've been 'pwned' mercilessly any number of times).

Here is my classification of noobs, in order from good noob to bad noob.

1. People who have already done some research on their own, have read VJ guides and/or equivalent, and have specific questions. ---- very cool, deserve lots of help.

2. People who post new threads on topics that have already been covered many times before in the forums, where a little bit of searching will give them the answer they need. --- not so cool. Give them a brief response, point them to Guides and/or a relevant message thread that covers their Q.

3. People that start "it's all about me" threads. You know the kinds I mean... inevitably the OP is a wonderful person, but somehow everyone is out to get him/her. Inevitably these threads are not about immigration topics but usually about relationship help or some other online therapy session. They tend to go on forever. Sometimes they can be entertaining to read in a morbid voyeuristic way. But they are n00b threads, for sure! ---- not so cool, but they get a pass from the noob patrol for the first 50 posts or so. After post #50 it's fair game to post one of those "Not this f#cking thread again" pics, or a "Will this thread never end?" pic.

4. People who want validation for their attempts at visa fraud. You know -- "Oh, look at me. I'm in the US on an overstayed visa, but it's really swell here and I think I'll stay. How do I find a chopf##k to marry me and adjust status?". Or --- "We did a K1 but I was still married. Silly me. I don't have to start over right? I can just tell them at the interview that I was never married, right?" ------- Big time LOOZER N00bz deserve all the heartless azzbusting we can lay on sorry azzes!

5. Scamsters and trolls who start threads which invariably get locked for TOS violations. You can see the locks coming from the instant you read the OP. ---- These guys need serious n00b pwning.

6. So called "experts" who are regulars on VJ and respond to innocent OPs with "helpful" advice that is often wrong and can land OP in deep deep doodoo if they followed that advice. An example would be telling someone who entered with immigration intent that it's no big deal to get married and adjust status - an action which can result in deportations and bans if the OP is not careful. ---- this is probably the worst of all, even worse than stupid lame scammers and trolls. Nothing but scorn should be heaped on these azzholes.

[TBoneTX 45,088]

Here is my classification of noobs, in order from good noob to bad noob.

Upon reflection, I consider this to be a comprehensive and well-ordered list, si man.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Here is my classification of noobs, in order from good noob to bad noob.

Upon reflection, I consider this to be a comprehensive and well-ordered list, si man.

Concur.

Yes, noobz thread is more about jest than anything else. People should really stop taking themselves seriously. If you post anything online, you are welcoming comments. If you just want nice lovey comments, share the stuff with your mamma.

[Susita 175]

Hey guys!

I just hang around to bash Starbucks, not new people!

I also enjoy volleyball, photoshopping, drinking Dunkin Donuts, and yelling at Trolls.

I luv everybody (except Mr. Saran Wrap).

Seriously, the n0obz thread (I thought) was to make funny at trolls and people who ask silly questions or strange ones (like ...I just broke up with my American husband and we never got married, so can I still hang out in the US and marry his best friend) - or things of that nature. I do that in real life. We can start calling them dummiez if you want though!

Everybody who chats with me knows I'll help out whenever needed

I'd like to admit that I'm still pretty noobalicious myself.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Well, yes, if you post things online you should expect it to be commented on, that is true and it includes what you post in the Noobs thread, though I have noticed over time that there are many people who can dish it out but the certainly can't take it when the tables are turned.

No is is taking themselves seriously except maybe Scandal with his comprehensive noobs list. Has that been submitted ot TOS? What do the mods think? Has Ewok weighed in? Or is scandal really that important that he gets his own amendments to TOS? This usually doesn't happen without a discussion taking place here first.

But I take this website seriously in that it offers invaluable advice to people who are about to undertake the 3 most stressful things a person is likely to experience in life: marriage, moving (to another country no less!) and immigration.

And I have noticed a lot more "trolls" turning up since the beginning of this noob thread. I'd hedge a bet that it's mostly just y'all creating a little drama to comment on, which is fine if it was taking place in OT. I really do have a problem if it is someone who is a real person who is either 1. asking a dumb question (a review of most people's post history will reveal that they once did the same) 2. venting a little frustation (see the paratheses in 1.)

This website is kind of like Mean Girls, only with middle aged men and women instead of teenagers.

Hmmm. Ok. This is apparently about me.

It's not about you it's about everyone who piled in after you posted a link. As they say in the UK, it wasn't big and it wasn't clever.

[Niels Bohr 72]

If you don't know the rules, don't do the lecture.

All senior members were at the n00b stage. Atleast in one of those categories.

[Susita 175]

Ewok is the only one who has never been a n0ob.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Susita

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Well, yes, if you post things online you should expect it to be commented on, that is true and it includes what you post in the Noobs thread, though I have noticed over time that there are many people who can dish it out but the certainly can't take it when the tables are turned.

No is is taking themselves seriously except maybe Scandal with his comprehensive noobs list. Has that been submitted ot TOS? What do the mods think? Has Ewok weighed in? Or is scandal really that important that he gets his own amendments to TOS? This usually doesn't happen without a discussion taking place here first.

But I take this website seriously in that it offers invaluable advice to people who are about to undertake the 3 most stressful things a person is likely to experience in life: marriage, moving (to another country no less!) and immigration.

And I have noticed a lot more "trolls" turning up since the beginning of this noob thread. I'd hedge a bet that it's mostly just y'all creating a little drama to comment on, which is fine if it was taking place in OT. I really do have a problem if it is someone who is a real person who is either 1. asking a dumb question (a review of most people's post history will reveal that they once did the same) 2. venting a little frustation (see the paratheses in 1.)

This website is kind of like Mean Girls, only with middle aged men and women instead of teenagers.

sister I take the immigration part of the website seriously; and I give advise when I know what I am talking about. The OT section of VJ is not something to take seriously.

as to the bolded part: are you seriously accusing any of us of creating trolls? ####### girl, you know better.

Edited June 25, 2009 by *Len*

[Susita 175]

as to the bolded part: are you seriously accusing any of us of creating trolls? ####### girl, you know better.

Why would we create trolls? I've got 2 little trolls running around over here already LOL.

[*julez* 124]

I don't believe any of us is talking about the cess pool that is OT, but rather the K1 forum and the Effect of major Changes forum (for 2 examples) - where people are constantly abused.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Well, yes, if you post things online you should expect it to be commented on, that is true and it includes what you post in the Noobs thread, though I have noticed over time that there are many people who can dish it out but the certainly can't take it when the tables are turned.

No is is taking themselves seriously except maybe Scandal with his comprehensive noobs list. Has that been submitted ot TOS? What do the mods think? Has Ewok weighed in? Or is scandal really that important that he gets his own amendments to TOS? This usually doesn't happen without a discussion taking place here first.

But I take this website seriously in that it offers invaluable advice to people who are about to undertake the 3 most stressful things a person is likely to experience in life: marriage, moving (to another country no less!) and immigration.

And I have noticed a lot more "trolls" turning up since the beginning of this noob thread. I'd hedge a bet that it's mostly just y'all creating a little drama to comment on, which is fine if it was taking place in OT. I really do have a problem if it is someone who is a real person who is either 1. asking a dumb question (a review of most people's post history will reveal that they once did the same) 2. venting a little frustation (see the paratheses in 1.)

This website is kind of like Mean Girls, only with middle aged men and women instead of teenagers.

sister I take the immigration part of the website seriously; and I give advise when I know what I am talking about. The OT section of VJ is not something to take seriously.

as to the bolded part: are you seriously accusing any of us of creating trolls? ####### girl, you know better.

yeah, I have been a member of this site for quite some time and am familiar with the work of some of its more prolific posters

I'm not talking about OT, Sister Len, I don't care what people do there as long as it's not racist. I'm talking about linking to upper forums for people to come from OT to pile on.

And seriously, I had to laugh when someone in the noob thread linked to a post by none other than meauxna, who's probably done more to than any of you to help others on their journeys over time as though she shouldn't have an opinion about it. nOOb indeed!

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Gotcha. But did you gotcha too that we are not creating the drama? OPs are - exposing their ludicrous ohai can i marry my second boyfriend instead of petitioner plz cockamamie stories?

I talked things over with sister meauxna; and we are all quite happy she is back, btw.

[*julez* 124]

Thank God she has your blessing.

Even if the noobs ask questions that you perceive to be stupid does not give you the right to bash them. It speaks volumes about the type of person you are if you think its OK.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

n/m

Edited June 25, 2009 by *Len*

[scandal 951]

Well, yes, if you post things online you should expect it to be commented on, that is true and it includes what you post in the Noobs thread, though I have noticed over time that there are many people who can dish it out but the certainly can't take it when the tables are turned.

No is is taking themselves seriously except maybe Scandal with his comprehensive noobs list. Has that been submitted ot TOS? What do the mods think? Has Ewok weighed in? Or is scandal really that important that he gets his own amendments to TOS? This usually doesn't happen without a discussion taking place here first.

No, it's not been submitted to TOS, nor should it be. I am not "that important". These are not "amendments to TOS". As I stated, these are simply my own personal "rules of engagement", dictating what I think personally is a reasonable way to decide how to react to posts I see on VJ. We all have such rules, even if they are implicit and not formalized. You do too - you decide which threads interest you, which to read, which to comment on, what comments to make. The only difference is I chose to share my list with you, in a (obviously failed) attempt to show you that I think they are reasonable and not as mean-spirited as you think I am. Probably if you wrote down your methodology for deciding how/what/when to post on VJ, it would look different than my list, but have some overlap. I bet we agree pretty much entirely on category 1, for example.

But I take this website seriously in that it offers invaluable advice to people who are about to undertake the 3 most stressful things a person is likely to experience in life: marriage, moving (to another country no less!) and immigration.

And I have noticed a lot more "trolls" turning up since the beginning of this noob thread. I'd hedge a bet that it's mostly just y'all creating a little drama to comment on, which is fine if it was taking place in OT. I really do have a problem if it is someone who is a real person who is either 1. asking a dumb question (a review of most people's post history will reveal that they once did the same) 2. venting a little frustation (see the paratheses in 1.)

I'm not sure about that there are more trolls now than previously. Maybe that's true. We have one recurring poster.. a fellow who goes by saran, and various pseudonyms, who was banned from VJ entirely by Ewok & mods. He keeps coming back, that's a new phenomenon.

I can assure you personally that I have never posted a trolling thread, never created an alternate ID on VJ, etc. I cannot speak for others.

I appreciate and respect that you "really do have a problem..." Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree on some things.