Did USCIS naturalize me too early?

[OldUser 6,911]

1 hour ago, thelimey said:

nah, not an issue. I won't bore you with the details, but that's been settled by the Supreme Court. I trust my lawyers on this stuff. 

The details would have been very useful to community... Do you have some to share?

[thelimey 8]

1 hour ago, OldUser said:

The details would have been very useful to community... Do you have some to share?

I forget the exact Supreme Court case which set precedent, but in short, while someone is a citizen of the US they are subject to the same laws as all other citizens. How can a citizen be guilty of impersonating being a citizen? They are a citizen. If they had claimed to be a citizen before being naturalized or after being denaturalized then that would be a false claim of being a US citizen, but for the period they were a citizen they are not falsely claiming to be a citizen, they are truthfully stating they are a citizen.

I think a lot of the confusion on forums like this is the name - Visa Journey. Citizenship is not like a Visa. Folks on here are used to thinking through the lens of visas as we spend so many years dealing with them. What if I work on my visa that didn't allow me to work? What if I overstayed on my student visa? What if I get turned away at the port of entry? Visas are issued by USCIS and can be revoked by USCIS. Citizenship isn't like that. Hence so many hurdles to get it. Citizenship can be issued by USCIS, but they cannot revoke it. Just like they cannot deny a citizen entry at a port/airport. Only a federal judge can revoke citizenship. And rarely is it done. 

Once someone is naturalized they are a citizen. Period. If they are later denaturalized for any reason, it's not retroactive.

Let's say someone becomes a citizen and 20 years later it turns out they lied on their application as they'd applied under a new identity and had previously been a criminal mastermind in their birth country. Let's say the government really wants to deport them, but they can't deport a citizen. So they pursue denaturalization.  Let's say after a lengthy legal battle the defendant loses and is denaturalized by a federal judge. They are stripped of their citizenship, effect from that moment forward. This reverts them to their previous immigration status. Let's say green card holder. Now they can be deported as that criminal past makes them inadmissible as a permanent resident. But, what if they'd used their rights as a US citizen to vote in multiple elections during that 20 years? So what? No crime occurred. Those votes aren't retroactively invalid. The election folks didn't make a mistake in counting their votes. Their votes were as valid and legal as any other US citizen because they were a citizen at the time.

I use that extreme criminal-past example as it's only a handful of denaturalizations per year even under Trump's first term and they are generally for exactly that reason. Serious stuff, not minor clerical errors.

Hope that clear things up

Edited December 5 by thelimey

[Rekyrts 52]

On 12/5/2024 at 11:25 AM, thelimey said:

I had no issue with passport, SSN, voting etc. I'm a citizen. No debate on that. Taking the oath and having the certificate makes it so. Question is only was the citizenship obtained legally - and, if not, would a federal court revoke it, reverting me to a green card holder who can then apply for citizenship again, bringing us right back to citizenship and wasting the courts and me a bunch of time and money. In theory answers to those questions are yes, but we don't live in a theoretical world. Spirit of law vs. letter of law, etc.

But, all that said - I'm only in the situation described in this thread as I didn't know the rules. If I had a do-over I'd just have pushed the oath out a month and avoided the issue. You should do that. Why knowingly put yourself in a tricky situation?

 

Good advice. I would ensure that the date is shifted.

After this was discussed, I did some digging from someone in the know; this person brought up three similar cases that happened in the last two decades that this person had access to (absolutely scary that this happens). The one was a paperwork error (transposed dates dating back to green card; something about European dates) and two that were due to a "glitch" in the system.

- In two of the cases, they were caught by an audit; the applicants were reverted to green cards and immediately re-naturalized (there was paperwork re-done).
- The one applicant had passed away.

They were not prosecuted for false claims since these were due to USCIS error, BUT USCIS/INS didn't apologize for said errors. They had to be re-naturalized because, per law, they were not citizens.

Thus. I'd concur (to the person who you were advising): re-schedule. As with everything immigration, the ultimate oversight for our individual cases really depends on us. Same concept for folks who get 10-yr green cards instead of 2-yr ones in error. If not fixed, we end up holding the bag, even though it wasn't our fault.

Edited December 9 by Rekyrts

[thelimey 8]

12 minutes ago, Rekyrts said:

In two of the cases, they were caught by an audit; the applicants were reverted to green cards and immediately re-naturalized (there was paperwork re-done).

Interesting. I wonder how they were 'reverted' as my understanding is this is not something USCIS can do. 'Reverting' a citizenship is denaturalization. See posts above re: federal courts/judges. 

[Rekyrts 52]

11 minutes ago, thelimey said:

Interesting. I wonder how they were 'reverted' as my understanding is this is not something USCIS can do. 'Reverting' a citizenship is denaturalization. See posts above re: federal courts/judges. 

 

The language that my source used was "revoke" and not denaturalization; I don't know enough about the legal difference in the terms to say much on either.

My understanding is that legally, these people did not qualify for naturalization in the first place, so no one had the power to naturalize them. They simply were not American citizens, even though they went through the process. As such, they were still LPRs (except for the one person, who had an issue with that... that had to be fixed first). So, they were not denaturalized. Denaturalization is a complex legal process looking to strip citizenship from someone who otherwise qualified for it. The common example is someone who meets the requirements but lies about their history as a war criminal. He/she/they would be denaturalized.

That's my understanding. The two folks consulted with attorneys and concurred, and went through an abbreviated process to correct the problem. 

[thelimey 8]

22 minutes ago, Rekyrts said:

My understanding is that legally, these people did not qualify for naturalization in the first place, so no one had the power to naturalize them. They simply were not American citizens, even though they went through the process. As such, they were still LPRs (except for the one person, who had an issue with that... that had to be fixed first). So, they were not denaturalized. Denaturalization is a complex legal process looking to strip citizenship from someone who otherwise qualified for it. The common example is someone who meets the requirements but lies about their history as a war criminal. He/she/they would be denaturalized.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The lawyers I consulted with said, if you were naturalized you're a citizen until denaturalized. But, A.I. would seem to concur with what you wrote:

• If someone was not eligible to be naturalized as a U.S. citizen but took the oath and was issued a citizenship certificate, they are not legally considered a U.S. citizen.
• The issuance of a Certificate of Citizenship or Naturalization does not automatically confer citizenship if the person did not meet the legal requirements for naturalization
• In such cases, the citizenship may be considered void or subject to revocation. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has the authority to review and potentially revoke citizenship that was improperly granted.
• The person would need to remain eligible for citizenship from the time of their interview until they take the oath of allegiance.
• If it is discovered that someone obtained citizenship fraudulently or without meeting the eligibility requirements, they could face legal consequences, including potential denaturalization proceedings.
• It's important to note that naturalization is a legal process with specific requirements that must be met, and simply going through the ceremony does not override these requirements.

[Rekyrts 52]

4 minutes ago, thelimey said:

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The lawyers I consulted with said, if you were naturalized you're a citizen until denaturalized. But, A.I. would seem to concur with what you wrote:

• If someone was not eligible to be naturalized as a U.S. citizen but took the oath and was issued a citizenship certificate, they are not legally considered a U.S. citizen.
• The issuance of a Certificate of Citizenship or Naturalization does not automatically confer citizenship if the person did not meet the legal requirements for naturalization
• In such cases, the citizenship may be considered void or subject to revocation. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has the authority to review and potentially revoke citizenship that was improperly granted.
• The person would need to remain eligible for citizenship from the time of their interview until they take the oath of allegiance.
• If it is discovered that someone obtained citizenship fraudulently or without meeting the eligibility requirements, they could face legal consequences, including potential denaturalization proceedings.
• It's important to note that naturalization is a legal process with specific requirements that must be met, and simply going through the ceremony does not override these requirements.

 

This thread and something my dad told me made me start digging. He and my mom filed together for naturalization, but she qualified about a year and half before he did. The attorney they used missed it, and the IO missed it. It wasn't until oath day that it was caught. My dad said it was a mini-disaster. They stopped the ceremony, pulled him out of line to a room and started deliberating. My mom was terrified. It took them an hour to figure things out. My dad was early by like a month, so he had to wait. My mom declined to take the oath that day, so they did get to take the oath together. USCIS told him that it was ultimately his responsibility to make sure he was eligible.

 

This was the example my source used: a federal judge has the authority to perform an oath ceremony. If said judge took a few of his/her foreign-born friends and did a ceremony during a party, the ceremony is meaningless, unless these friends had met the lawful requirements AND were examined by USCIS prior).

Same applies to the notorious 10yr vs 2yr error. If an immigrant somehow naturalizes because they got a 10-yr green card in error (without doing the required ROC), the naturalization is void. Said person wouldn't be denaturalized, because they did not legally naturalize.

[thelimey 8]

6 hours ago, thelimey said:

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The lawyers I consulted with said, if you were naturalized you're a citizen until denaturalized. But, A.I. would seem to concur with what you wrote:

• If someone was not eligible to be naturalized as a U.S. citizen but took the oath and was issued a citizenship certificate, they are not legally considered a U.S. citizen.
• The issuance of a Certificate of Citizenship or Naturalization does not automatically confer citizenship if the person did not meet the legal requirements for naturalization
• In such cases, the citizenship may be considered void or subject to revocation. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has the authority to review and potentially revoke citizenship that was improperly granted.
• The person would need to remain eligible for citizenship from the time of their interview until they take the oath of allegiance.
• If it is discovered that someone obtained citizenship fraudulently or without meeting the eligibility requirements, they could face legal consequences, including potential denaturalization proceedings.
• It's important to note that naturalization is a legal process with specific requirements that must be met, and simply going through the ceremony does not override these requirements.

I don't want to delete my post above as it has already been quoted by others, but I do want to clarify some things. Ask 3 different A.I. sites the same question and get 3 different answers; the technology is still in its infancy, and this topic is so esoteric there is not a lot of info out there on it so the A.I. does not have a good dataset to model. 

 

 

Point is, the USCIS cannot revoke citizenship. As mentioned many times above, only a court can. The USCIS can cancel a certificate of naturalization, but this really only applies to people who obtained that certificate without being naturalized - i.e. criminally on the black market, etc.

 

From the USCIS site (key statements bolded):

 

USCIS is authorized to cancel any Certificate of Citizenship or Certificate of Naturalization in cases where USCIS considers that the certificate itself was obtained or created illegally or fraudulently.^[6] Cancellation of a certificate under this provision only cancels the certificate and does not affect the citizenship status of the person in whose name the certificate was issued. 

 

If someone was unlawfully naturalized or misrepresented or concealed facts during the naturalization process, civil or criminal proceedings must be instituted to revoke the naturalization and the status of the person as a citizen. Once the naturalization is revoked, the court also cancels the person’s Certificate of Naturalization. 

 

The main difference between cancellation and revocation proceedings is that cancellation only affects the document, not the person’s underlying status. For this reason, cancellation is only effective against persons who are not citizens, either because they have not complied with the entire naturalization process or because they did not acquire citizenship under law, but who nonetheless have evidence of citizenship which was fraudulently or illegally obtained. 

 

Where USCIS has affirmatively granted naturalization to a person, that person is a citizen unless and until that person’s citizenship is revoked.^[7] 

 

Revocation, therefore, is appropriate when:

• The person filed an Application for Naturalization (Form N-400);

• The person appeared at the naturalization interview;

• The naturalization application was approved; and

• The person took the Oath of Allegiance for naturalization.

By contrast, a person who illegally obtained a Certificate of Naturalization without going through the naturalization process, and was therefore never naturalized by USCIS, is not a citizen of the United States. While the person has a certificate as evidence of U.S. citizenship, the certificate in and of itself, does not confer the status of citizenship.

 

In such cases, USCIS can initiate proceedings to cancel the Certificate of Naturalization.^[8] 

 

Because the person holding this certificate did not obtain citizenship based on a USCIS process, the person maintains whatever immigration status he or she had. 

 

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-l-chapter-1

[Rekyrts 52]

13 hours ago, thelimey said:

I don't want to delete my post above as it has already been quoted by others, but I do want to clarify some things. Ask 3 different A.I. sites the same question and get 3 different answers; the technology is still in its infancy, and this topic is so esoteric there is not a lot of info out there on it so the A.I. does not have a good dataset to model. 

 

 

Point is, the USCIS cannot revoke citizenship. As mentioned many times above, only a court can. The USCIS can cancel a certificate of naturalization, but this really only applies to people who obtained that certificate without being naturalized - i.e. criminally on the black market, etc.

 

From the USCIS site (key statements bolded):

 

USCIS is authorized to cancel any Certificate of Citizenship or Certificate of Naturalization in cases where USCIS considers that the certificate itself was obtained or created illegally or fraudulently.^[6] Cancellation of a certificate under this provision only cancels the certificate and does not affect the citizenship status of the person in whose name the certificate was issued. 

 

If someone was unlawfully naturalized or misrepresented or concealed facts during the naturalization process, civil or criminal proceedings must be instituted to revoke the naturalization and the status of the person as a citizen. Once the naturalization is revoked, the court also cancels the person’s Certificate of Naturalization. 

 

The main difference between cancellation and revocation proceedings is that cancellation only affects the document, not the person’s underlying status. For this reason, cancellation is only effective against persons who are not citizens, either because they have not complied with the entire naturalization process or because they did not acquire citizenship under law, but who nonetheless have evidence of citizenship which was fraudulently or illegally obtained. 

 

Where USCIS has affirmatively granted naturalization to a person, that person is a citizen unless and until that person’s citizenship is revoked.^[7] 

 

Revocation, therefore, is appropriate when:

• The person filed an Application for Naturalization (Form N-400);

• The person appeared at the naturalization interview;

• The naturalization application was approved; and

• The person took the Oath of Allegiance for naturalization.

By contrast, a person who illegally obtained a Certificate of Naturalization without going through the naturalization process, and was therefore never naturalized by USCIS, is not a citizen of the United States. While the person has a certificate as evidence of U.S. citizenship, the certificate in and of itself, does not confer the status of citizenship.

 

In such cases, USCIS can initiate proceedings to cancel the Certificate of Naturalization.^[8] 

 

Because the person holding this certificate did not obtain citizenship based on a USCIS process, the person maintains whatever immigration status he or she had. 

 

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-l-chapter-1

 

Great discussion. Your willingness to be open really helps this community.