why file for EAD if you'll get a green card anyway?

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

Most people here illegally have false documents, work for someone that doesnt take out taxes, or works for someone sympothetic to illegal aliens.

I don't think the employers should be to blame, has anyone seen the movie "A day without Mexicans"?

I am a citizen and I do vote and I will be sure to vote only for people willing to do something about immigration.

[Caladan 19]

Not true most employers have no idea of the law, especially small companies. The immigrant is the responsible party and will be the one more likely punished.

No. Employers have laws they are required to comply with hence the reason for the I9 regulations - read your own post regarding the responsibilities of each party.

If a K1 holder works illegally, it's forgiven at AOS.

If the employer hires someone illegally, there are civil and criminal penalties. Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work. An employer that violates these laws can face penalties of:

· $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;

· $2,000 to $5,000 for each employee if the employer has previously been in violation; or

· $3,000 to $10,000 for each individual if the employer was subject to more than one cease and desist order.

The employer could also be fined $100 to $1,000 for each individual “paperwork” violation.

C.'s firm made the Hispanic workers (collectively referred to as 'the Mexicans', can't get drillers to care) sign a form that allegedly indemnifies the company from false paperwork. They basically had to sign a form certifying that their SSN was accurate. I have no idea if this is legal, but I thought it was interesting (and probably discriminatory as all getout.)

[John & Annie 0]

Most people here illegally have false documents, work for someone that doesnt take out taxes, or works for someone sympothetic to illegal aliens.

I don't think the employers should be to blame, has anyone seen the movie "A day without Mexicans"?

I am a citizen and I do vote and I will be sure to vote only for people willing to do something about immigration.

Well I guarantee there are more here in the US that think the onus should be on the employers. In fact I am hoping they slap huge fines on the employers.

This way perhaps the US Government will realize that we need to open up more visa's and make a more logical path to get workers here. I used to run a very large Landscaping Company and we would of loved to sponsored people, but the fact remains that there are not enough visa's available.

I have never seen that overstated farce, the fact is that if you look across America, in most places you will find every race working as bus boys and fast food restaurants.

[kitkat1 5]

I have had employees that we have received notices that the SS# did not match the name 1 year after they were employed but it is the resonsibility of the employee the clear it up not the employer.

There are 12 million people working here in the US illegally, how are they working? Are they at fault or is it the employers fault?

If the work demand needs the workers why not offer something for them to work legally? Blame Congress and Senate.

Employers are not responsible for being experts. Even local law enforcement agents don't try to enforce federal laws because they don't know enough about federal laws.

You don't understand and you are posting incorrect information based on your opinion - not based on the true facts.

Employers ARE responsible. No one said they have to be experts - that's why they are provided with clear instructions and information on the requirements for hiring -- see the I9 regulations. Or read Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, which makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work.

Employers who receive notices that the SSN does not match the name of one of their employees are responsible for taking action. They are the ones who face the fines and penalties .

Illegal immigrants often work with fake papers and SSNs. That's how they work. If the employer does not verify that documentation, it's THEIR problem.

[Dr_LHA 3]

Ignorance of the law is no defense in a criminal case I'm afraid. If an employer doesn't understand the rules and gets busted for it, they don't have a leg to stand on.

EDIT: Mods, maybe this should be split to Off-Topic?

Edited August 9, 2007 by Dr_LHA

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

I have had employees that we have received notices that the SS# did not match the name 1 year after they were employed but it is the resonsibility of the employee the clear it up not the employer.

There are 12 million people working here in the US illegally, how are they working? Are they at fault or is it the employers fault?

If the work demand needs the workers why not offer something for them to work legally? Blame Congress and Senate.

Employers are not responsible for being experts. Even local law enforcement agents don't try to enforce federal laws because they don't know enough about federal laws.

You don't understand and you are posting incorrect information based on your opinion - not based on the true facts.

Employers ARE responsible. No one said they have to be experts - that's why they are provided with clear instructions and information on the requirements for hiring -- see the I9 regulations. Or read Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, which makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work.

Employers who receive notices that the SSN does not match the name of one of their employees are responsible for taking action. They are the ones who face the fines and penalties .

Illegal immigrants often work with fake papers and SSNs. That's how they work. If the employer does not verify that documentation, it's THEIR problem.

I do understand completely and what have stated to be the truth that isn't?

The penalties apply to the immigrant if using faulse documents and

If the employer did not know the SS# was not authorized for work he has good faith defense

If an employer can show that he or she has complied with the form I-9 requirements, then a good faith defense with repect to a charge of knowingly hiring an unauthorized alien, unless the government can show that the employer had actual knowledge of the unauthorized status of the employee.

They look at employers that practice hiring illegals not companies that don't know any better with a single employee. If the government discovers an individual is working without authorization the alien has to produce the documents , not he employer. The employer may be told they made a mistake and they could be fined. The government would have the burdon to prove the employer had actual knowledge of the unauthorized status of the employee.

Read the employer handbook, if the employer thinks he is correct he is fine. IT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR IN THE EMPLOYER HANDBOOK. THE EMPLOYER IS NOT GOING TO BE CHARGED FOR NOT BEING A DOCUMENT EXPERT.

(1) Written notice from SSA that the combination of name and SSN submitted for an employee does not match SSA records; and

(2) written notice from DHS that the immigration status document, or employment authorization document, presented or referenced by the employee in completing Form I-9 was assigned to another person, or that there is no agency record that the document was assigned to anyone.

The proposed regulation also describes more specifically the steps that an employer might take after receiving a no-match letter, steps that DHS considers reasonable. By taking these steps in a timely fashion, an employer would avoid the risk that DHS may find, based on the totality of circumstance present in the particular case, that the employer had constructive knowledge that the employee was not authorized to work in the United States. The steps that a reasonable employer may take include one or more of the following:

(I) A reasonable employer would check its records promptly after receiving a no-match letter, to determine whether the discrepancy results from a typographical, transcribing, or similar clerical error in the employer's records or in its communication to the SSA or DHS. If there is such an error, the employer would correct its records, inform the relevant agencies (in accordance with the letter's instructions, if any; otherwise in any reasonable way), and verify that the name and number, as corrected, match agency records--in other words, verify with the relevant agency that the discrepancy has been resolved--and make a record of the manner, date, and time of the verification. ICE would consider a reasonable employer to have acted promptly if the employer took such steps within 14 days of receipt of the no-match letter.

(II) If such actions do not resolve the discrepancy, the reasonable employer would promptly request the employee to confirm that the employer's records are correct. If they are not correct, the employer would take the actions needed to correct them, inform the relevant agencies (in accordance with the letter's instructions, if any; otherwise in any reasonable way), and verify the corrected records with the relevant agency. If the records are correct according to the employee, the reasonable employer would a sk the employee to pursue the matter personally with the relevant agency, such as by visiting a local SSA office, bringing original documents or certified copies required by SSA, which might include documents that prove age, identity, citizenship or alien status, and other relevant documents, such as proof of a name change, or by mailing these documents or certified copies to the SSA office, if permitted by SSA. ICE would consider a reasonable employer to have acted promptly if the employer took such steps within 14 days of receipt of the no-match letter. The proposed regulation provides that a discrepancy will be considered resolved only if the employer verifies with SSA or DHS, as the case may be, that the employee's name matches in SSA's records a number assigned to that name, and the number is valid for work or is valid for work with DHS authorization (and, with respect to the latter, verifies the authorization with DHS) or that DHS records indicate that the immigration status document or employment autho rization document was assigned to the employee. In the case of a number from SSA, the valid number may be the number that was the subject of the no-match letter or a different number, for example a new number resulting from the employee's contacting SSA to resolve the discrepancy. Employers may verify a SSN with SSA by telephoning toll-free 1-800-772-6270, weekdays from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. EST. See http://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnvadditional.htm . For info on SSA's online verification procedure,see http://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnv.htm . Employers should make a record of the manner, date, and time of any such verification, as SSA may not provide any documentation.

(III) The proposed regulation also describes a verification procedure that the employer may follow if the discrepancy is not resolved within 60 days of receipt of the no-match letter. This procedure would verify (or fail to verify) the employee's identity and work authorization. If the described procedure is completed, and the employee is verified, then even if the employee is in fact an unauthorized alien, the employer will not be considered to have constructive knowledge of that fact.

http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?...a796128ec5f68c9

The only penalty for aliens working without permission is if they use false documents.

The won't information that was given is to fire them if they don't have a name match on their SS#. You have to follow a process before you can fire them or you will have a lawsuit if they can come up with the correct information.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Gaby&Talbert

[LaL 418]

and what is to be gained by what you posted? At the current time EAD's are included in the fee for AOS provided you apply for it. what is the point?

[kitkat1 5]

And what on earth is your point? The initial question was the need for an EAD and about K1s working without authorization. The correct answer is that the K1 won't run into trouble but the employer will. No one ever stated that an employer had to be "a document expert". I9 regulations are clear and the law is clear. One last time:

Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work.

We are not talking about illegal immigrants. We are talking about an employer who hires someone with a SSN card that says "NOT VALID FOR WORK WITHOUT DHS AUTHORIZATION". Since this sentence is very very clear and self-explanatory, the employer would be breaking the law because they would be "knowingly" hiring an alien who is not authorized to work.

Seriously, give it up.

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

My point is that an employer is not punished if he believes the person is authorized to work. If the employer believes he complied with the I-9 requirements in good faith then he is not going to be punished. If the alien produced false documents the employer is not going to be punished. If no match letter is sent to the employer it is the employees responsibility to correct the error within 60 days or he will loose his job at that time.

The illegal immigration is not completely the fault of the employers. If the US had stopped the flow of illegal immigrants from the start we would have had worker programs in place a long time ago.

[misa 2]

If it says

"Line one: Valid for work only

Line two: With DHS Authorization"

An employer can say it doesn't match what the I-9 form says so he could accept it.

Yes, but that employer would be an idiot.

[kitkat1 5]

We are not talking about illegal immigration.

No one said illegal immigration is the fault of employers and we are not discussing false documents.

We are talking about what would happen to an employer who is stupid enough to hire a person holding a SSN that says "NOT VALID FOR WORK WITHOUT DHS AUTHORIZATION".

[Caladan 19]

There's a distinction between whether it is the employer's responsibility to determine whether its employee are authorized to work, the difficulty of so ascertaining, and the likelihood of sanctions being applied and on what grounds, if any, the employer may defend itself.

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

Believe me there are plenty of employers that dont even read the cards, they write down the number and make a copy for their files and that is it. I know several LPR's that have their own business and can't even read spanish or english. They have successful businesses and employees, to be honest most illegal aliens work for people that don't take out taxes. They are working for people that pay cash and leave it up to the employee to deal with taxes. Alot of the illegals have their own subcontracting businesses.

[LaL 418]

Believe me there are plenty of employers that dont even read the cards, they write down the number and make a copy for their files and that is it. I know several LPR's that have their own business and can't even read spanish or english. They have successful businesses and employees, to be honest most illegal aliens work for people that don't take out taxes. They are working for people that pay cash and leave it up to the employee to deal with taxes. Alot of the illegals have their own subcontracting businesses.

good for them! that still does not matter when someone asks "why need an EAD"? Like Kitkat stated, we are not discussing false documents, etc etc. it is pretty clear what the requirments are, and if its not clear to a noob, this is not the thread to try to understand it from!

[Dr_LHA 3]

Believe me there are plenty of employers that dont even read the cards, they write down the number and make a copy for their files and that is it.

AKA: Law breakers. They'll be the first up against the wall when ICE pays a visit.

I know several LPR's that have their own business and can't even read spanish or english.

Ignorance of the language is no excuse for breaking the law.

They have successful businesses and employees, to be honest most illegal aliens work for people that don't take out taxes. They are working for people that pay cash and leave it up to the employee to deal with taxes. Alot of the illegals have their own subcontracting businesses.

All illegal.

What exactly are you advocating here? Working illegally? If so that's a TOS violation.

Otherwise if you're telling that employers often don't follow the rules of the I-9, this is hardly a revelation. Doesn't make it any less legal and in the (unlikely) event they get busted by ICE, I doubt "I didn't know the difference between a SS card and a SS Card says not authorized to work on it" would be a credible defense.