221g

[AngelK96 0]

Let us ask the ladies on this board.... do your Muslim husbands express "anti-semitism," or "anti-Zionism" (or both, or neither) ?

-MK

Well my husband's father is Jordanian and mother is from Palestine. He doesn't express anti semitism but I guess you can say he is an anti zionist. As with most Palestinians remember it's about the gov't of israel not its religion.

Angel

Note: I read iceyspots post and i didn't find anything offensive about it either. From what i read she was just speculating why the CO there may be denying petitions. I think all of us on this ME/NA forum have speculated as to why Morroco is getting a lot of denials going on there. Truth be known nobody but the gov't and the CO know why they rejected the petitions. That's all i got out of her post was she was just speculating. Everyone as the right to post they opinions on here. Even if someone doesn't like it or not!

[babybunny 2]

[quote name='iceyspots' post='112955' date='Apr 5 2006, 12:36 PM']

Um but I really can see why she had big suspicions... Face it, the muslim world is anti-semetic, it's pretty rare if a muslim marries a jew... and the fact that she was born in Israel makes it worse.. but she should still keep her mind open that it is possible.. Maybe she's all bitter because all moroccan men want to leave their women behind?

This is the U.S. consulate however. Religion should not weigh into the decision period.

I do not suffer from PMS. I will point out what pizzzzed me off its this statement right here.I was NOT the onlyone offended!

Edited April 7, 2006 by shonjaved

[iceyspots 0]

Algeria is NOT a state sponsor of terrorism.

how do you know that if they are on the. there is a "T-26" and "T-7 " list for a reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Algeria used to have internal terrorism problems in the 90's.

I think 911 has changed alot of things....

Thanks to the reformed government and the anti-terrorism sentiments by the people, %99.9 of that terrorism has been eradicated. And I say %99.9 because no country in this world is terrorist free, not even the USA. Algeria knows who terrorists were/are and who are not. Algeria is not known as a high fraud post either.

Surly you have "FACTS" to state this right? after all algeria knows who all the terrist are.. your double talking my dear!

And I am in no way saying the moroccan petitions are all fraudulent, but the consulate knows of these conditions and it is their red flag, and they feel helpless because they don't have any concrete evidence to deny anyone unless there are obvious signs. but not probable at all that Osama bin Ladin is hiding in Algeria in Tunisia. Is he hiding in Pakistan?

oh of course he would never be hiding in Algeria. because Algeria has the " crystal ball " to all

terrorist. they know all because they are the great terror free country. on the " T-26 " list of course.

That's probable, so of course the security checks are going to be enforced. And also, the nastiness was not neccesary nor appropriate, (It's the last thing we need on this board)

take your own advise FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you seen me direct obvious nastiness towards anybody on these boards?

yes! thats why I responded the way I did!

I don't resort to snide remarks, I don't stoop to that level.

as a matter of factly you did! I am blunt and matter of the fact. I call it as I see it!

Umm... let's see, if you would please review your own evidence, it shows that the so called Terrible 7 ARE STATE sponsors of terrorism! Algeria is NOT on that list.. Algeria is NOT a state sponsor of terrorism. It's one case when there are terrorists in a country, and it's another case when that country's government silently (or unsilently) approves/assists terrorism.

And going back to your list, it said it is an UN-OFFICIAL list. Algeria has not recently had significant terrorist episodes, and definitely not like how Pakistan recently has . Also, Algeria does not have a huge amount of fraudulent marriages/fiancés, definitely not like Morocco does. Nobody from any country is immune to 221(g)'s.

And, boy do I hate repeating myself, the terrorism problems were INTERNAL, not EXTERNAL (Meaning they didn't target anyone outside of Algeria, they weren't known to tote around death to america flags).

And if you know anything about terrorists, you would know that they do organize. After lots of research and investigation into the aftermath, the government is able to do stringent background checks to find out without having to give out a 221(g). Do you think the U.S. Consulate in Algiers would allow them to come to the U.S. un-checked?

Thanks to recent widespread changes in enforcement in government, many human rights have been vastly improved (Thank you Mr. Boutflika)

And again, I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE that Osama was hiding in Algeria, just not probable. And I never said Algeria is terrorist free.. I said that NO COUNTRY is terrorist free..

And the broken record plays again, What I said was not nastiness! I stated:

Um but I really can see why she had big suspicions... Face it, the muslim world is anti-semetic, it's pretty rare if a muslim marries a jew... and the fact that she was born in Israel makes it worse.. but she should still keep her mind open that it is possible.. Maybe she's all bitter because all moroccan men want to leave their women behind?

Are you disputing the fact that there a quite of bit of people in the muslim world are anti-semetic? Do you see Jews and Muslims flocking in huge numbers to get married? Why don't you ask any Jewish person, if they would move to Pakistan, even if given a free home? I'm not saying a Jewish-Muslim wedding is impossible, it's just pretty rare, and, in the ME/NA, when it does happen, like one stated before, the couples are ostracized by both families. If she was an American born non-orthodox Jew, maybe the CO would've saw it a tad bit differently, but an Israeli born Jew, makes the relationship even more rare or doubtful in her eyes. And I *did* say that the CO should keep her mind open to the fact that even though it's rare it does happen and there are succesful relationships that come out of it. Since when do speculations on the CO's intent come to be considered "nastiness" ?

You stated:

This is the U.S. consulate however. Religion should not weigh into the decision period.

Do you think that *really* stops people from interjecting their own opinion in the validity of a marriage? I never said it SHOULD. I believe that religion shouldn't be an issue, but that doesn't change the fact that this prejudice obviously DID happen.

You stated: I do not suffer from PMS. I will point out what pizzzzed me off its this statement right here.I was NOT the onlyone offended!

Then I'm sorry that facts offend you. You can wish all you want that these prejudices don't exist, but they do. I wish this CO would've shut her mouth about religion and came to some realization that there are some, not many, but some Jewish-Muslim succesful marriages, but obviously she is prejudiced in many many ways.

I may have been nasty in my replies to you, but that is because you personally attacked me for voicing my speculations to the OP. Honestly, the "ding dong" and "pooping in cornflakes" statements should've been left into the kindergarden schoolyard. If I really wanted to resort to that level of nastiness, I could, But I refuse to.

Edited April 7, 2006 by iceyspots

[iceyspots 0]

I was trying to stay away from this, but I can't. The truth is that many muslims are anti-semitic. Not just anti-zionist. Anti-semitism is embedded in the Koran. Most muslims are educated from an early age with lies about judaism and jews. Anti-zionism is in my opinion a convenient way for many of them to express their anti-semitism. As I have stated before, I am Jewish, and while my husband has not taken a hatred of Jews to heart, he has taken many incorrect teachings about our history and beliefs to heart and assumes they are fact; I catch him in this often. I can see how it would be very easy to hate Jews based on what is in the Koran

I read an interesting book called "Islam and the Jews: The Unfinished Battle" by Mark Gabriel. He grew up in Egypt and lived through the 6-day war. He was highly educated in the Muslim religion and converted to Christianity later in life. He goes through the Koran and shows how many people are taught to take its words to heart, and at face value many of the passages are anti-semitic.

If you look at any religion's sacred texts you will find things that in modern context are simply ridiculous (eg, an eye for an eye, drowning women who commit adultery, etc). So while I won't say Islam is anti-semitic itself, many people interpret its holy book literally and come to conclusions based upon its writings that Jews must be hated. He argues that this creates a context for today's anti-Zionism.

So is Islam innately anti-semitic? No. Are all muslims anti-semitic? No. But many people who follow it subscribe to a very literal interpretation of its holy writings, which means that many people are educated through the Koran to be anti-semitic.

I agree that the Palestinians, Lebanon, and Egypt have very justified anger towards Israel's past and present expansionist policies, but the hatred is deeper and further back. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but like Shon, I can't candy coat this and I can't keep silent.

Exactly.

[babybunny 2]

I said T-26 list.. but since you know so dayum much how come your not working for the CIA? or the FBI? did your application get lost or what?

I think you are prejudice against Jewish people! your trying to pass it off on the CO. Your remarks are beyond nasty in my mind. like I said

you are already " Pooping " in your own corn flakes. You never know when the tables will turn on YOU!!!!!!!!! we are your "peers" like it or not your sorry behind will be comming right back here. The moment you get 221g!!! SU Gente!

[babybunny 2]

Have you seen me direct obvious nastiness towards anybody on these boards?

And the broken record plays again, What I said was not nastiness! I stated:

the muslim world is anti-semetic, it's pretty rare if a muslim marries a jew..

. and the fact that she was born in Israel makes it worse..

Do you see Jews and Muslims flocking in huge numbers to get married?

Why don't you ask any Jewish person, if they would move to Pakistan, even if given a free home?

I'm not saying a Jewish-Muslim wedding is impossible,

If she was an American born non-orthodox Jew, [

but an Israeli born Jew, makes the relationship even more rare or doubtful

This is the U.S. consulate however. Religion should not weigh into the decision period.

but some Jewish-Muslim succesful marriages,

like i said you are prejudice against Jewish people! your trying to pass it off on the CO!!!!

I may have been nasty in my replies to you, but that is because you personally attacked me for voicing my speculations to the OP. Honestly, the "ding dong" and "pooping in cornflakes" statements should've been left into the kindergarden schoolyard. If I really wanted to resort to that level of nastiness, I could, But I refuse to.

instead you took it to another lower level by making Racist comments! SU Gente!

Edited April 7, 2006 by shonjaved

[iceyspots 0]

I said T-26 list.. but since you know so dayum much how come your not working for the CIA? or the FBI? did your application get lost or what?

I think you are prejudice against Jewish people! your trying to pass it off on the CO. Your remarks are beyond nasty in my mind. like I said

you are already " Pooping " in your own corn flakes. You never know when the tables will turn on YOU!!!!!!!!! we are your "peers" like it or not your sorry behind will be comming right back here. The moment you get 221g!!! SU Gente!

You said T7 AND T26... The T7 list applies to STATE Sponsors of terror.

Working for the inefficient government is not my forté, I'm an honors student in Nursing. That's much more exciting than sitting on a desk pushing paper.

If you read any of my previous posts, I am not prejudiced towards jewish people. I stated I was anti-zionist, and if you were paying any attention to any of the posts, being anti-semetic and being anti-zionist are two different ideologies. I stated that I was working on dispelling the myths that are in my fiancés mind about Jews. From time to time I do boycotts with the Free Palestine Campaign based in Ann Arbor Michigan... and would you believe it that of the people I boycott with, most of them are Jewish ? They are really good people who believe there are really wrong things and human rights violations happening in Palestine.

I am also an executive board member of the National Honors Fraternity. Our social chair is Jewish.. and we always joke with eachother, she tells me "Quit bombing our restaurants!" I tell her, "Quit running tanks through my house!". It's just done jokingly. I have a few Jewish friends and they are the greatest. I don't judge them nor their belief system. I simply stated the fact that there ARE anti-semetic feelings out there and the evil CO could've used that to make a prejudgement, does that mean I'M anti-semetic? No.. you have faulty reasoning. If I'm sooo prejudiced towards Jews, why is my lawyer a Jew??

And it's not right to wish a 221(g) on somebody, you are assuming I am going to get one. Getting a 221(g) could happen to ANYBODY. And you also said in your previous posts, that I should investigate 221(g)'s from Algiers. Gee.. out of the 20+ couples that I've ever known in my life that were interviewed in Algiers, not one got a 221(g). Anyone on VJ from Algiers that got a 221(g) ? People are being interviewed in Algeria that get less questions asked than someone coming from the UK or Australia.

And about the "peers" thing, I've recieved several PM's from people praising me for clearing things up with you. If you read any of my other posts on this topic, you will see that I did sympathize with Leila.

BTW - if you want to demonize me for anything, then demonize me for chuckling at your spelling errors.

Edited April 7, 2006 by iceyspots

[babybunny 2]

a 221g lets see the odds.. here is a list of the T "26 "

Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

The reason why I mention "T-7" is to show this list also exist. reguardless, your justifying

your own prejudice by mentioning people around you. Convince yourself all you want -but, your

statements paint a picture. a grim one. Su Gente!

[iceyspots 0]

Have you seen me direct obvious nastiness towards anybody on these boards?

And the broken record plays again, What I said was not nastiness! I stated:

and the fact that she was born in Israel makes it worse..

but an Israeli born Jew, makes the relationship even more rare or doubtful

(Yes, it's true, not all Jewish people are the same.. but being of Israeli origin, where the tension between the two groups is the highest, even adds more doubt to the CO's fire).

Do you see Jews and Muslims flocking in huge numbers to get married?

Well, do you? There's nothing racist about the statement, it's a simple question to inquire about the number of how many Jewish-Muslim marriages there are out there.

the muslim world is anti-semetic, it's pretty rare if a muslim marries a jew

honeyblonde posts : Mustapha considered himself to be a good Muslim and although we never discussed religion too much, he was terrified when he realized that the intern at the dentist's office that was going to be working on him was Jewish.

rhouni posts : While antizionism and antisemitism are two different things, I think it is a line very easily crossed. I tend to agree with Sharon that antizionism is often a more convenient way to express antisemitism - it serves in some ways as a politically correct mask for their true feelings.

Why don't you ask any Jewish person, if they would move to Pakistan, even if given a free home?

Now if you want to think that statement is racist, if anything, it would be racist towards Pakistanis.

I'm not saying a Jewish-Muslim wedding is impossible.

Well, It's not, obviously! Since she petitioned for her fiancé.

If she was an American born non-orthodox Jew - but some Jewish-Muslim succesful marriages

You can't deny the fact that if a Jewish woman marries a Muslim man, if her family is orthodox, they will NOT accept this and the woman will be totally cut off from any contact with her family. Being forced to "divorce" your family creates sadness and tension that will cause some marriages to break apart, and there is also a divorce factor between the husband and wife that can be brought in at any point, that's why I say *SOME* are successful. After all, arent only SOME american marriages successful? And if the muslim family of the man are hardliner, they would not accept her either, unless she converts to Islam.

wife_of_mahmoud posts : "There are actually a considerable number of marriages between Muslim men and Jewish women. Some of these women convert to Islam, some do not. Since such couples are ostracized in Israel, with the husbands often refused even the right to live there, they often make their homes in the West Bank, where they are accepted without social censure."

This is the U.S. consulate however. Religion should not weigh into the decision period.

And again, some CO's will interject their personal belief system into the interview. Do I support that? No, but you can't deny that it doesn't happen, especially when it's really obvious that the CO questioned the religion issue.

like i said you are prejudice against Jewish people! your trying to pass it off on the CO!!!!

Why would I need to pass it off on the CO? She did a good enough job herself making her look prejudice.

Edited April 7, 2006 by iceyspots

[babybunny 2]

btw, you have no idea what I do or a living..

Have you seen me direct obvious nastiness towards anybody on these boards?

And the broken record plays again, What I said was not nastiness! I stated:

the muslim world is anti-semetic, it's pretty rare if a muslim marries a jew..

. and the fact that she was born in Israel makes it worse..

Do you see Jews and Muslims flocking in huge numbers to get married?

Why don't you ask any Jewish person, if they would move to Pakistan, even if given a free home?

I'm not saying a Jewish-Muslim wedding is impossible,

If she was an American born non-orthodox Jew, [

but an Israeli born Jew, makes the relationship even more rare or doubtful

This is the U.S. consulate however. Religion should not weigh into the decision period.

but some Jewish-Muslim succesful marriages,

like i said you are prejudice against Jewish people! your trying to pass it off on the CO!!!!

I may have been nasty in my replies to you, but that is because you personally attacked me for voicing my speculations to the OP. Honestly, the "ding dong" and "pooping in cornflakes" statements should've been left into the kindergarden schoolyard. If I really wanted to resort to that level of nastiness, I could, But I refuse to.

instead you took it to another lower level by making Racist comments! SU Gente!

is this what you are trying to say?

Edited April 7, 2006 by shonjaved

[iceyspots 0]

a 221g lets see the odds.. here is a list of the T "26 "

Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

The reason why I mention "T-7" is to show this list also exist. reguardless, your justifying

your own prejudice by mentioning people around you. Convince yourself all you want -but, your

statements paint a picture. a grim one. Su Gente!

And again... for the THIRD time... UN-OFFICIAL LIST that has people that have "reportedly" had 221(g) issues. And for the THIRD time, NOBODY IS SAFE FROM THE 221(G)!!! IT IS FAIR GAME FOR ANYBODY! They are also experienced in Juarez (Mexico), Phillipines, and Ho Chi Minh city in Vietnam. You're acting like I am sitting here telling Leila "NANNY NANNY BOO BOO YOU GOT A 221(G)!" I am making a point that the evil CO USED this EXCUSE TO GIVE OUT A 221(G)!

I HAVE NO PREJUDICE TOWARDS JEWS!! GEEEZ.. I simply stated, many times, that THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE MUSLIM WORLD WHO RESENT JEWS OR ZIONISM, WHICH WAS EVEN CONFIRMED (OR DISPUTED) BY OTHER POSTERS ON THIS THREAD, AND THAT WILL GIVE A REASON - NOT NECCESARILY A GOOD ONE - FOR THE CO TO GIVE THEM A 221(G). How simple is that !

btw, you have no idea what I do or a living..

Is that a threat?

[babybunny 2]

SU GENTE!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I was trying to stay away from this, but I can't. The truth is that many muslims are anti-semitic. Not just anti-zionist. Anti-semitism is embedded in the Koran. Most muslims are educated from an early age with lies about judaism and jews. Anti-zionism is in my opinion a convenient way for many of them to express their anti-semitism. As I have stated before, I am Jewish, and while my husband has not taken a hatred of Jews to heart, he has taken many incorrect teachings about our history and beliefs to heart and assumes they are fact; I catch him in this often. I can see how it would be very easy to hate Jews based on what is in the Koran.

I read an interesting book called "Islam and the Jews: The Unfinished Battle" by Mark Gabriel. He grew up in Egypt and lived through the 6-day war. He was highly educated in the Muslim religion and converted to Christianity later in life. He goes through the Koran and shows how many people are taught to take its words to heart, and at face value many of the passages are anti-semitic.

If you look at any religion's sacred texts you will find things that in modern context are simply ridiculous (eg, an eye for an eye, drowning women who commit adultery, etc). So while I won't say Islam is anti-semitic itself, many people interpret its holy book literally and come to conclusions based upon its writings that Jews must be hated. He argues that this creates a context for today's anti-Zionism.

So is Islam innately anti-semitic? No. Are all muslims anti-semitic? No. But many people who follow it subscribe to a very literal interpretation of its holy writings, which means that many people are educated through the Koran to be anti-semitic.

I agree that the Palestinians, Lebanon, and Egypt have very justified anger towards Israel's past and present expansionist policies, but the hatred is deeper and further back. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but like Shon, I can't candy coat this and I can't keep silent.

You do not offend me in the least, Sharon. I always welcome your opinions, and I look foward to all your posts as you are always intelligently spoken, considerate and helpful to others, and you certainly harbor no ill will to anyone.

Now my response to your post.

I am sure that you sincerely believe all that you have written. But your post is filled with commonly repeated cliches that are simply untrue. With all due respect, have you considered the possibility that it's you yourself who might be "educated from an early age with lies" ?

One often hears the claim that "most Muslims teach their children to hate Jews." However, if you take a closer look at the origin of these claims, you will see that they stem not from unbiased research, but from exaggerations and distortions in media reports that are most often based on Zionist sources, and most often citing issues within the Palestinian-Israeli context. And under further scrutiny, the facts do not support such statements, but rather turn the tables on the accusers.

Several recent studies of Israeli and Palestinian school texts found such racist teachings in the Israeli books, not the Palestinian ones !

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel. http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0999/9909019.html

And Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen wrote a book called "An Ugly Face in the Mirror." From the same link:

Cohen’s book is a study of the nature of children’s upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians.

One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:

Seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine.

Now, on to the adults. You will find a far higher percentage of "anti-Islamics" among Jews than you will find

"anti-semites" among Muslims. According to Ha'aretz newspaper, a recent survey taken by Israel's Center Against Racism in Jewish communities in Israel found that half the population feels "uncomfortable and fearful" when they hear people speaking Arabic, and 18% percent feel hate. Well over half (68%) would refuse to live in the same building with Muslims. Nearly half (46%) would refuse to allow an Arab visitor in their home. 41% supported the segretation of Jews and Muslims in recreational areas. A whopping 63% agreed with the statement that "Arabs are a security and demographic threat to the state." 34 % agreed that "Arab culture is inferior to Israeli culture." And 40% agreed that "the state should encourage Arab citizens to emigrate."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/697514.html

As for "anti-semitism" being "imbedded in the Qur'an," it actually pales in the face of what is in the Christian New Testament. (Reference John 5:18-19, John 7:1-2, John 7:19, Matthew 23:37-39, Thessalonians 22:14-16, Romans 11:28, Revelations 3:9, and many more.) So would you also say that many or even most Christians take these anti-semitic passages "to heart" and at "face value," and are taught from an early age to hate the Jewish people ?

You bring up the point that many sacred texts teach things that are "ridiculous" or unacceptable in a modern

context. Depending on one's interpretation, this may be certainly be true. Now examine what the Torah has to say about the non-Jewish groups in Palestine, and what it claims God told the Jews to do about them. Examine what is "embedded" in Judaism's Talmud and Sanhedrin in reference to non-Jews (and Christians in particular.) These teachings pre-date Qur'an. Would you say that many or most Jews take these passages "to heart" and at "face value," and are taught at an early age to hate Christians and Muslims ? If one were a racist, one might come to the conclusion that the religious group which actually has the longest history of perpetrating racial/religious hatred is.... Judaism.

Calling anti-Zionism "a convenient way to express anti-semitism" is actually a convenient way to attempt to distract attention away from discussing the specifics of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, or who should take the blame for this mess. Equating anti-Zionism with "anti-semitism" is a very convenient smokescreen designed to protect Zionists from legitimate criticism, and the ruse has been quite effective so far.

And there's one final false cliche that I need to address. The history of what you call "anti-semitism" in Muslim countries is not ancient at all. It dates precisely to the attempt to create a Jewish state by force in Palestine. Muslims and Jews lived together in relative peace for centuries. It was the Muslims who finally allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem, centuries after they had been expelled by the Romans. The great majority of "anti-semitic" hate crimes occured in Christian countries, not Muslim ones where their rights were protected (as per Qur'anic instruction.) During the Middle Ages, North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge for the persecuted Jews of Spain and other European countries. In the Holy Land, they lived together in relative harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the "rightful" possession of the "Jewish people" to the exclusion of its Muslim and Christian inhabitants.

The Arab world did not persecute Jews for being Jews. Israelis are at war with most of the Arab world because they have committed the sin of colonialism, not because of their Jewish identity.

Sharon, I have much respect for you personally, and I don't think you are deliberately attempting to distort. You only know what you have learned and experienced in your life. I used to believe the same things you have written, until I opened my eyes to learn that half the story has not been told (at least to most Americans.)

Salam/Shalom

-MK

Iceyspots.... a quick interruption to make an important correction.

I certainly did NOT say that couples in Muslim-Jewish marriages are ostracized by "both families." I said that they are ostracized in Israel, but accepted by Palestinians in the West Bank. Please re-read my post.

Carry on....

-MK

[Jenn! 918]

Thank you again for another informative and enlightening post.

I am learning so much!

[Together4ever 1]

I have avoided this issue like the plague because this is one issue people will continuely disagree on and it's too emotionally charged (and frankly I don't want to "fight" with anyone).

However, after living in Egypt for almost a year (and yes this has nothing all to do with Morocco so I will say it up front) what I observed and experienced is that unfortunately most of the muslims there are a tad bit "resistant" to not only people of the jewish faith but christians as well--well ok just about anyone different. NOW I am not saying that anyone's loved one holds these opinions but this is a matter of a deep cultural imprinting with MOST of the people. You will find this on both sides of the fence. It surely exists just a prevalently in our country as well. Maybe not regarding exactly the same specifics, but it's there.

This is just human nature folks. We all hold prejudices whether we are comfortable admitting it or not. This muslim vs jewish issue exists quite prevalently and from what I have experienced it isn't even an intellectual one. Bottom line--t's just THERE. I watch my SO struggle with it. He is a believer in the human being first, but he's had all this bigotry (substantiated OR unsubstantiated has no play in this) swirling around him his whole life and it comes to the front sometimes. He is not comfortable with it and is savvy enough to stop himself before he reacts to these issues.

I just hate to see people reduced to such upset on the forum. We are already battling a rough journey. I sincerely hope this does not offend anyone on here.