Losing US citizenship for living abroad

[randomstairs 303]

According to this law firm a naturalized citizen must continue to prove strong ties to the US when living abroad for more than a year. This goes against everything I believed about the immigration and citizenship in the US. 

 

"The general rule is that a naturalized citizen who voluntarily resides outside the US for an uninterrupted period of more than one year may be presumed to have abandoned their US citizenship. However, this presumption is rebuttable if the individual can provide evidence to the contrary. Factors like maintaining substantial ties to the US, filing US tax returns, owning property, or keeping immediate family members in the country can help demonstrate an intent to retain citizenship."

 

https://www.machadolaw1.com/blog/2023/july/can-you-lose-your-citizenship-if-you-live-abroad/#:~:text=Living Abroad and its Impact&text=The general rule is that,provide evidence to the contrary.

[Boiler 45,445]

Written by an intern?

[PaulaCJohnny 713]

Not a thing.

Stop to reading some blogs and look on reliable sources like the USCIS website.

 

Naturalized or born have the same rights. Nothing changes.
 

Advice: use your time to better things than look for speculations. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by PaulaCJohnny

[OldUser 6,608]

No chance US would allow this to happen.

 

You may or may not know, when renouncing US citizenship, you may be paying exit tax. The filing fees themselves are pretty high. A lot of the times at the interview in foreign embassy (that's where US citizens renounce), US officials ask multiple times if one is renouncing voluntarily and whether they are 100% sure.

 

I guess tax liability on worldwide income is one of the reasons US doesn't  have laws about automatic loss of citizenship by simply living outside for too long.

 

I'm not aware of automatic loss when acquiring foreign citizenship by US citizen either. The other country may ask US citizen to renounce citizenship as a prerequisite for granting them their citizenship though.

Edited October 13, 2023 by OldUser

[randomstairs 303]

I'm glad everyone had a good laugh about this law office's statement. But my concern is deeper. Only in 1964 the Supreme Court decided that, in that particular case, the naturalized and "natural born citizens" are equal (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_v._Rusk#:~:text=Schneider v. Rusk%2C 377 U.S.,clause of the Fifth Amendment.).

But, as we all know by now, from recent cases, the SCOTUS decisions are of temporary validity. Where in the INA is it explicitly stated that naturalized citizens have the right to live abroad? 

Thanks!

[Boiler 45,445]

Where does it say any US Citizen has the right to live abroad?

 

Cenk was born in Turkey, he thinks he has a case.

 

 

[randomstairs 303]

7 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Where does it say any US Citizen has the right to live abroad?

 

Cenk was born in Turkey, he thinks he has a case.

 

 

Yep. That's when I started looking into the law. 

[randomstairs 303]

@Boiler mentions Cenk. That's exactly the origin of my deep worries. If our rights are conditional on a single SCOTUS decision then I'm extremely concerned, given the recent history.

[OldUser 6,608]

47 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Where does it say any US Citizen has the right to live abroad?

 

Cenk was born in Turkey, he thinks he has a case.

 

 

@Boiler Please help me understanding how this video relates to the question about citizenship?

 

55 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Where does it say any US Citizen has the right to live abroad?

What would be the legal basis for taking US citizenship away from somebody living overseas? 

 

I have a similar question (no joke): what law does allow a person to pick their nose? Where is it written?

 

I'm not a lawyer, but AFAIK ""ubi jus incertum, ibi nullum jus" E.g. what's not regulated by law or is not defined by law cannot be enforced. 

 

Here's a list of things that can lead to loss of US citizenship:

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html

 

I did not see "living overseas" listed there.

[Boiler 45,445]

I have not looked into how he thinks he will swing this, I did not because it all seemed a waste of time, not as he is going to get anywhere, I assume a PR stunt.

 

I remember seeing or hearing he has a Lawyer well versed in this area, I think it was on NPR I heard it.

[SalishSea 17,801]

10 minutes ago, Boiler said:

I have not looked into how he thinks he will swing this, I did not because it all seemed a waste of time, not as he is going to get anywhere, I assume a PR stunt.

 

I remember seeing or hearing he has a Lawyer well versed in this area, I think it was on NPR I heard it.

Boiler listens to NPR!   😊

[Boiler 45,445]

1 minute ago, SalishSea said:

Boiler listens to NPR!   😊

To be fair it is the only Talk Radio my car radio will receive and in the boonies Cell reception can be iffy.

 

And it is quite funny, especially when they fund raise. Last week after a Global Warming We are all going to die piece they had the bowl out with a prize, a trip to Belize! And they have people call in and say how wonderful they are and they are their only source of reliable information and have some money. Explains a lot

[SalishSea 17,801]

16 minutes ago, Boiler said:

To be fair it is the only Talk Radio my car radio will receive and in the boonies Cell reception can be iffy.

 

And it is quite funny, especially when they fund raise. Last week after a Global Warming We are all going to die piece they had the bowl out with a prize, a trip to Belize! And they have people call in and say how wonderful they are and they are their only source of reliable information and have some money. Explains a lot

Well you know my politics, and I’ve been listening to NPR for nearly 40 years!  
 

Also, it is always kind of funny to me that British immigrants would live in the boonies in the US.  Do you often meet Americans who are unable to understand your accent?

Edited October 13, 2023 by SalishSea

[jan22 3,049]

Prior to 1994, someone who naturalized was expected to intend to live permanently in the US per Section 340 of the INA.  If they moved to a country outside the US within one year of naturalization, it was considered prima facie evidence of a lack of that intent, and was grounds to "denaturalize" the person. However, this was removed from the INA in 1994, in Section 104 of the Technical Corrections Act.

The cited 1964 case law on the residency rights of natural born vs naturalized citizens was, obviously, decided prior to the 1994 change to the INA on the grounds that natural born citizens could not lose citizenship because of overseas residency.  The amended law now makes clear that residing overseas is not grounds for losing US citizenship.

 

I don't believe that narrow decision on the law plays a part in changing the requirement to be a "natural born" citizen (i,e., those who were born as US citizens, with no need to naturalize) to run for President.  That is a constitutional requirement (Article II, Section 1, Clause 5), although he claims he can overcome that requirement on constitutional grounds.  I'm not sure how any court can declare the Constitution to be unconstitutional, so I don't know how he's planning to be successful, but..who knows!  There certainly is not enough time to propose and pass a constitutional amendment to change that provision prior to the next election.

Edited October 13, 2023 by jan22

[JeanneAdil 6,489]

Prior to 1994, the analysis presented in this article might have been different. Back then, a person who became a naturalized U.S. citizen was expected to hold the intention of residing permanently in the United States. This was written into Section 340 of the Immigration and Nationality Act or I.N.A., but the language was removed in 1994, within Section 104 of the Technical Corrections Act.

 

SEC. 104. INTENT TO RESIDE PE31MANENTLY IN THE UNITED STATES AFTER NATURALIZATION. (a) IN GENERAL.—Section 338 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1449) is amended by striking "intends to reside permanently in the United States, except in cases falling within the provisions of section 324(a) of this title,". (b) CONFORMING REPEAL.—Section 340(d) of such Act (8 U.S.C. 1451(d)) is repealed. (c) CONFORMING REDESIGNATION.—Section 340 of such Act (8 U.S.C. 1451) is amended— (1) by redesignating subsections (e), (f), (g), (h), £uid (i) as subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), and (h), respectively; and (2) in subsection (d) (as redesignated), by striking "subsections (c) or (d)" and inserting "subsection (c)". (d) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.—Section 405 of the Immigration 8 use 1440 note. Act of 1990 is amended by striking subsection (b). 8 use 1449 note. (e) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendment made by subsection (a) shall apply to persons admitted to citizenship on or after the date of enactment of this Act

 

From  page 4 Section 104

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-108/pdf/STATUTE-108-Pg4305.pdf#0-0-0-763