Hate crime or free speech?

[mawilson 2,133]

Throwing the Koran in the toilet and calling it 'art' is not the same as just throwing it in the toilet.

A piece of private petty vandalism is not the same creating a controversial work of art for the public consumption and discussion.

That was my point, thank you.

How do you think this student will justify his act - Will he be able to explain the reasoning behind it or was it purely impulsive?

I doubt he'll be able to justify it as a work of art.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Throwing the Koran in the toilet and calling it 'art' is not the same as just throwing it in the toilet.

A piece of private petty vandalism is not the same creating a controversial work of art for the public consumption and discussion.

That was my point, thank you.

How do you think this student will justify his act - Will he be able to explain the reasoning behind it or was it purely impulsive?

I doubt he'll be able to justify it as a work of art.

It would seem unlikely. I think Almaty spelled it out pretty well. I think a lot rides on his intention - but that said whether he intended it or not I can see that his act would be perceived as intimidating by muslim students at the school. Only parallel I can think of is someone who pulls a toy gun on someone - they might think its a joke but it can cause the victim fear and anxiety.

[Clarky and Tarah 0]

Koran desecration arrest flushes away free speech

Mon, 07/30/2007 - 2:45pm.

In the United States, it's legal to burn the country's flag; it's legal to put a Christian cross in a glass of urine and call it art; and it's legal to create a painting of the Virgin Mary that incorporates elephant dung. Despite the fact that many people understandably find these acts to be highly repugnant and offensive, they are protected as free speech.

Last Friday, however, a 23-year-old man was arrested on hate-crime charges after surveillance photos linked him to two incidents of throwing Korans into toilets at Pace University in New York. Granted, the behavior was offensive and inappropriate: It does not elevate the debate about Islam and terrorism.

But in the compelling interest of protecting free speech, this man's alleged Koran flushings should be treated as property crimes, not hate crimes. He appears to have taken the Korans from the university's meditation room. If true, then he should be charged with theft. If the toilets' plumbing was damaged, then he should also be charged with vandalism.

In fact, Pace University initially classified the first book flushing as an act of vandalism, but later referred it to the hate crimes unit of the New York Police Department. If the university wishes to punish such asinine behavior, then as a private university, it has the right to establish a code of conduct that takes disciplinary action against those who create a hostile environment on campus.

Free speech is essential for democracy. It doesn't require us to agree with what everyone says, but it does require us to tolerate—and even defend—the right of others to express themselves in offensive ways.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/5668

Omg when I first read this thread really quickly I thought it said "throwing Koreans into toilets." I was thinking "how can that not be a hate crime?"

Yes, theft definitely, but I don't think it was a hate crime.

[peejay 327]

Retarded. He should be charged with theft, possibly vandalism....since the Korans didn't belong to him. Other than that, free speech.

Yup. There's a double standard. We must tread lightly around that religion as not to OUTRAGE certain members.

Yea! Muslims are like the Incredible Hulk...you don't want to make them angry. You won't like it when they get angry.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

The very use of the term "hate crime" is itself an issue--as just about every crime of violence is done out of malice.

And who has ever heard of "love crimes"?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

i agree,,it is the intent...to burn a cross in front of a minority house is a hate crime..........or to put the N word on a african-aerican garage is a hate crime....it is all in the intent

Well said, brother.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Koran desecration arrest flushes away free speech

Mon, 07/30/2007 - 2:45pm.

In the United States, it's legal to burn the country's flag; it's legal to put a Christian cross in a glass of urine and call it art; and it's legal to create a painting of the Virgin Mary that incorporates elephant dung. Despite the fact that many people understandably find these acts to be highly repugnant and offensive, they are protected as free speech.

Last Friday, however, a 23-year-old man was arrested on hate-crime charges after surveillance photos linked him to two incidents of throwing Korans into toilets at Pace University in New York. Granted, the behavior was offensive and inappropriate: It does not elevate the debate about Islam and terrorism.

But in the compelling interest of protecting free speech, this man's alleged Koran flushings should be treated as property crimes, not hate crimes. He appears to have taken the Korans from the university's meditation room. If true, then he should be charged with theft. If the toilets' plumbing was damaged, then he should also be charged with vandalism.

In fact, Pace University initially classified the first book flushing as an act of vandalism, but later referred it to the hate crimes unit of the New York Police Department. If the university wishes to punish such asinine behavior, then as a private university, it has the right to establish a code of conduct that takes disciplinary action against those who create a hostile environment on campus.

Free speech is essential for democracy. It doesn't require us to agree with what everyone says, but it does require us to tolerate—and even defend—the right of others to express themselves in offensive ways.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/5668

Omg when I first read this thread really quickly I thought it said "throwing Koreans into toilets." I was thinking "how can that not be a hate crime?"

Yes, theft definitely, but I don't think it was a hate crime.

It doesn’t matter why he did it?

I can think of several offences where the ‘why’ can mean the difference between slapped wrist and long time in jail.

[Caladan 19]

I don't think it's a hate crime, but I don't think it's protected speech, either, as from the account it doesn't seem as though it was done publicly or as art. I'm seeing it as a property crime.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The very use of the term "hate crime" is itself an issue--as just about every crime of violence is done out of malice.

And who has ever heard of "love crimes"?

Crimes of passion?

Assisted suicide?

Edited August 1, 2007 by Number 6

[Caladan 19]

And Muslims are not the only ones whose religious views are treaded lightly around. The Chocolate Jesus exhibit was cancelled, too, after protests. But throwing a stolen Koran privately in a toilet just makes you an idiot, I think.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The very use of the term "hate crime" is itself an issue--as just about every crime of violence is done out of malice.

And who has ever heard of "love crimes"?

Crimes of passion?

Assisted suicide?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Would anyone feel intimidated by a "chocolate Jesus" though. They might be offended, but that's surely another matter.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

The very use of the term "hate crime" is itself an issue--as just about every crime of violence is done out of malice.

And who has ever heard of "love crimes"?

Crimes of passion?

always malice/jealousy involved here.

Assisted suicide?

More oft done out of greed, ergo malice.

So, you are down 2 for nought on this one.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The very use of the term "hate crime" is itself an issue--as just about every crime of violence is done out of malice.

And who has ever heard of "love crimes"?

Crimes of passion?

always malice/jealousy involved here.

Assisted suicide?

More oft done out of greed, ergo malice.

So, you are down 2 for nought on this one.

I could say that every crime involves some sort of theft - but that would be equally pedestrian

BTW how is euthanasia about 'greed'?

Edited August 1, 2007 by Number 6

[mawilson 2,133]

The very use of the term "hate crime" is itself an issue--as just about every crime of violence is done out of malice.

And who has ever heard of "love crimes"?

If I steal from you, doesn't mean I hate you - just means I care more about my own well-being.