Yo! Happy Wednesday!!!!

[♥JP♥ 5]

So far the best results I have got are with this method:

Shampoo/condition hari

while conditioner is in hair, comb it with wide tooth comb

rinse and squeeze excess water out

add styling product, I use garnier curl and shine cream

plop hair into one of those towel turban thingys

go to bed

wake up to bouncy curls

Plopping:

flip head upside down,scrunch curls. put the towel thing on and rest all of your hair on the top of you head. wrap and secure towel turban.

make sure you dont twist hair into the towel

whats this towel turban thing? a regular towel i do up like a turban or is there a special kind i should try? and shampoo- hari? whats that?

Its this microfiber hair tuban towel I bought on an infomercial I cant remember the name. LOL

[peezey 0]

i know i posted in that other thread about my fiance's hair being "nappy" but i haven't read it since and am not surprised someone took offense to our comments. when i read the first person's reply about her husband having nappy hair i instantly thought of the recent controversy and knew someone here would comment. i didn't think our comments were racist at all and don't understand why people are so overly sensitive and feel the need to be so overly PC these days?! (insert a barf emoticon here)

my fiance is african. my fiance has extremely coarse hair. my hair is naturally curly and extremely frizzy, yet a normal thickness. why does this have to be racist? yesterday at an amusement park i saw a tall white man who had a huge head of coarse, dirty blonde, nappy frizzy hair.

btw, that deva curl salon in NYC is no good. lol my stylist in NYC told me their trick is to tell you never to use shampoo. she had many clients who came in after going to deva for a while and they all stank to high heavens! LOL!!!!!!

Why do you get to ask what is racist to black people? So you are saying that if someone made some stereotypical statement about Jews, you shouldn't be able to be offended or ask people to stop saying it? Let's see, same phrasing as yesterday:

My husband is cheap. Does anyone know who can advise us better?

reply: Go see a Jewish financial manager, they are familiar with that kind of clientelle.

This is CLEARLY out of line and totally unacceptable and anyone who screamed bloody murder because someone posted it would be totally in line and deserving of apologies from the offender.

What is offensive to someone is not for ANY of us to decide. It's not fair to "call them on the race card" because that is just another way to discount their feelings. And the fact that people have african husbands here has nothing to do with it. NONE of our husbands are african-american for whom this term is very offensive when used by white people. Your husbands don't even know this word unless YOU use it.

And let's remember, the person offended by the use of this word did NOT call anyone racist, she said she felt like there were racist things being said. Now, people could have said, we really didn't mean it that way, and just moved on. But this continual insistance that **we** can say what we want because someone we know has curly hair is outrageous. Is it not enough for any of you that black women wrote and wrote and wrote about how hurtful it was when Imus said it?

[sereia 0]

this? hair turban

[JODO 2]

Eh, fair enough, but does someone's wife have the right to describe her husband's hair as nappy? I don't know but I hadn't thought of the term as in the same category as other racially-charged words. There's a children's book called Nappy Hair. So it seems to me to vary a bit with context and no one seemed to me to be mean-spirited when discussing barbers.

But in any case, if you want curly hair cut properly, go to someone who knows what they're doing with it. Because people used to cutting straight hair will butcher it.

I think the point is, when someone says it's offensive, who are we to question it? Obviously most people in the thread didn't find it offensive or know that it would be offensive, hence the repetitive use of the term. But when someone says hey, this is offensive to me, they should be given the respect of us shutting up, not fighting with her and telling her she's wrong and to chill out and to be prepared for a backlash. And IMO, a woman here calling her husband's hair nappy is inappropriate to me since no one here is married to an african american, no one here has a husband who's history includes this term.

I didn't see the other thread until after it was closed, but now I see the discussion has continued here, so I'd like to respond.

Peezey's comments are absolutely on target here.

Now of course I don't think anyone who responded is "racist." I think most of the people using the term in the other thread never dreamed that it might be interpeted as something derogatory.

But I think there is a major misunderstanding of what the term "nappy" means to the African-American community, and why this term is considered so insulting when used in reference to black people in the Americas, and why it got the response that it did (as happened with the Don Imus remarks.)

"Nappy" and "natty" (the version used in much of the English-speaking Caribbean) have historically meant "black-type" hair with a negative connotation -- as opposed to the "white-type" (implication: "good") hair. This is of course is an extremely racist idea.

And yes -- sadly -- because of racism, this idea became an entrenched perception in the black community for a very long time -- as if beautiful, natural "black" hair was something to be ashamed of. That is why for years and years, you had black people using all sorts of damaging chemical treatments to try to straighten or "relax" their lovely God-given hair into forced "white" styles.

It wasn't until the "black pride" movement of the 1960s that many African-American people started to feel comfortable with their own natural hair, and began to "show it off" in its full glory. (Of course, such movements started in the Caribbean much earlier -- you saw "dreadlocks" starting to be worn in Jamaica in the 1930s -- even there, this natural hairstyle was still considered far outside the socially acceptable mainstream until perhaps the late 1970s or 1980s.)

The term "nappy" can still be very hurtful -- because of the racist, insulting context. It is far from an innocuous description, although some in the thread certainly didn't realize that. It's true that some members of the black community may use the term among themselves as a "badge of honor" or sign of shared heritage (as some might even use the "N-word,") but it is almost always unacceptable for non-members of that community to use these words as casual descriptive terms.

Dread Natty Dreadlocks.

There is a reason it is called DREAD.

I too missed out ont he conversation last night. I think WOM summed up my feelings on this pretty well so I will only add that it was the ignorance that I found more offensive than the word.

Why do people think "African-American" hair is so unusual compared to the rest of the world? What is African american hair anyway? African americans have hair that comes in all kinds of textures.

sigh...

I think people ought to get out of their own back yards more often - esp those who want to marry into a different culture. I am so tired of hearing generalizations made based on ethnocentric beliefs. I get scared thinking about how many americans live in these single minded culural boxes. Can you spell diversity?

There I said it.

Here was an interesting article from The Boston Globe around the time of the Imus controversy:

Why 'nappy' is offensive

By Zine Magubane | April 12, 2007

WHEN DON IMUS called the Rutgers University basketball team a bunch of "nappy-headed ho ' s" he brought to the fore the degree to which black women's hair has served as a visible marker of our political and social marginalization.

Nappy, a historically derogatory term used to describe hair that is short and tightly coiled, is a preeminent example of how social and cultural ideas are transmitted through bodies. Since African women first arrived on American shores, the bends and twists of our hair have became markers of our subhuman status and convenient rationales for denying us our rightful claims to citizenship.

Establishing the upper and lower limits of humanity was of particular interest to Enlightenment era thinkers, who struggled to balance the ideals of the French Revolution and the Declaration of Independence with the fact of slavery. The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen did not discriminate on the basis of race or sex and had the potential to be applied universally. It was precisely because an appeal to natural rights could only be countered by proof of natural inequality that hair texture, one of the most obvious indicators of physical differences between the races, was seized upon. Nappy hair was demonstrable proof of the fact that neither human physiology nor human nature was uniform and, therefore, that social inequalities could be justified.

Saartjie Baartman, a South African "bushwoman," was exhibited like a circus freak in the Shows of London between 1810 and 1815. The leading French anatomist of the day, George Cuvier, speculated that Baartman might be the "missing link" between the human and animal worlds because of her "peculiar features" including her "enormous buttocks" and "short, curling hair."

In "Notes on the State of Virginia," Thomas Jefferson reflected on why it would be impossible to incorporate blacks into the body politic after emancipation. He concluded it was because of the differences "both physical and moral," chief among them the absence of long, flowing hair.

For a runaway slave, the kink in her hair could mean the difference between freedom in the North and enslavement or worse if she were to be caught and returned to her master. Miscegenation meant that some slaves had skin as light as whites and the rule of thumb was that hair was a more reliable indicator than skin of a person's racial heritage. Thus, runaway slaves often shaved their heads in order to get rid of any evidence of their ancestry and posters advertising for fugitive slaves often warned slave catchers to be on the lookout for runaways with shaved heads : "They might pass for white."

In the late 1960s, after the FBI declared Angela Davis one of the country's 10 most wanted criminals, thousands of other law-abiding, Afro-wearing African-American women became targets of state repression -- accosted, harassed, and arrested by police, the FBI, and immigration agents. The "wanted" posters that featured Davis, her huge Afro framing her face like a halo, appeared in post offices and government buildings all over America, not to mention on television and in Life magazine. Her "nappy hair" served not only to structure popular opinions about her as a dangerous criminal, but also made it possible to deny the rights of due process and habeas corpus to any young black woman, simply on the basis of her hairstyle.

For African-American women, the personal has always been political. What grows out of our head can mean the difference between being a citizen and being a subject; being enslaved or free; alive or dead. As Don Imus found out this week, 300 years of a tangled and painful racial history cannot be washed away with a simple apology.

Excellent, wonderful points that all sum up pretty much how I feel. OMG I have agreed wholeheartedly and completely with Peezey, the second coming must be near No, I'm kidding, I actually sent Peezey a thank you this morning before I left to run errands because of the succinct and methodical way she addressed the issue. I know people can use a word or a term and not be aware of its cultural baggage,but as a black woman myself I can honestly say we carry a great deal of emotional baggage regarding our hair and that is likely why it initially caught my attention and caused offense to others. That's not to say that people should feel the need to tiptoe around an issue,but just being aware that it can be viewed as a pejorative and derogatory term in the future I think always helps.

Good looking out ladies

[Caladan 19]

I use a long-sleeved t-shirt for plopping. Seems to work okay.

[♥JP♥ 5]

i know i posted in that other thread about my fiance's hair being "nappy" but i haven't read it since and am not surprised someone took offense to our comments. when i read the first person's reply about her husband having nappy hair i instantly thought of the recent controversy and knew someone here would comment. i didn't think our comments were racist at all and don't understand why people are so overly sensitive and feel the need to be so overly PC these days?! (insert a barf emoticon here)

my fiance is african. my fiance has extremely coarse hair. my hair is naturally curly and extremely frizzy, yet a normal thickness. why does this have to be racist? yesterday at an amusement park i saw a tall white man who had a huge head of coarse, dirty blonde, nappy frizzy hair.

btw, that deva curl salon in NYC is no good. lol my stylist in NYC told me their trick is to tell you never to use shampoo. she had many clients who came in after going to deva for a while and they all stank to high heavens! LOL!!!!!!

Why do you get to ask what is racist to black people? So you are saying that if someone made some stereotypical statement about Jews, you shouldn't be able to be offended or ask people to stop saying it? Let's see, same phrasing as yesterday:

My husband is cheap. Does anyone know who can advise us better?

reply: Go see a Jewish financial manager, they are familiar with that kind of clientelle.

This is CLEARLY out of line and totally unacceptable and anyone who screamed bloody murder because someone posted it would be totally in line and deserving of apologies from the offender.

What is offensive to someone is not for ANY of us to decide. It's not fair to "call them on the race card" because that is just another way to discount their feelings. And the fact that people have african husbands here has nothing to do with it. NONE of our husbands are african-american for whom this term is very offensive when used by white people. Your husbands don't even know this word unless YOU use it.

And let's remember, the person offended by the use of this word did NOT call anyone racist, she said she felt like there were racist things being said. Now, people could have said, we really didn't mean it that way, and just moved on. But this continual insistance that **we** can say what we want because someone we know has curly hair is outrageous. Is it not enough for any of you that black women wrote and wrote and wrote about how hurtful it was when Imus said it?

How can you even compare what Imus said to what Rahma said. You are making something out of nothing. If we can't decide what is offensive to others, then who are you tell us what is offensive to us. So are you saying that term is only offensive when used by white people? You are reaching here.

Even your comparison of jews to what Rahma said is far fetched. The person offended IMPLIED that the Rahma was racist. I never said she called her racist, but implying someone is racist is just as bad. This has nothing to do with saying what we want, we all know you are a pro at that. You can say whatever you want as long as it works to your advantage.

this? hair turban

Yes, those are great!!!

[sereia 0]

good idea, caladan! i'll try this plopping method soon ! LOL

and what was that shampoo, jp? hari?

[♥JP♥ 5]

good idea, caladan! i'll try this plopping method soon ! LOL

and what was that shampoo, jp? hari?

I don't have a specific one that I have settled on yet, at the current time I am using Redken Fresh Curls, its ok but not worth the price.

[sereia 0]

i've been using phytospecific intensive shampoo/conditioner. its extremely expensive and hard to find but really helped revitalize my hair after a terrible highlight experience when i first moved to NYC and didn't know where to get my hair done. she FRIED my hair. it was like straw and broken all over!

Edited August 2, 2007 by sereia

[♥JP♥ 5]

i've been using phytospecific intensive shampoo/conditioner. its extremely expensive and hard to find but really helped revitalize my hair after a terrible highlight experience when i first moved to NYC and didn't know where to get my hair done. she FRIED my hair. it was like straw and broken all over!

Nexus has a product called "Emergencee" its works really good. You can't get rid of damange but you can make it look better.

[sereia 0]

well hopefully this disaster will never happen again! my hair has finally almost all grown out (almost two years later!!!!!!!!)

[♥JP♥ 5]

well hopefully this disaster will never happen again! my hair has finally almost all grown out (almost two years later!!!!!!!!)

Same thing happened to me two years ago as well. I used to always get highlights and then my stylist overlapped them and I had tonssssssssss of breakage. I have been brunette since then and I'm bored with it now. I really want to get highlights again for the wedding but i'm scared to screw my hair up again.

[sereia 0]

haha i did the SAME! after the disaster i went brunette again until about 2 months ago....i was bored and wanted the highlights again! i fully trusted my amazing stylist in NYC. but now i'm back in CA and hope my old stylist from before is still here! lol otherwise its back to brunette again.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

How can you even compare what Imus said to what Rahma said.

imo it's not even in the same universe. and i'm sure everyone knows that rahma and i get along like fire and water so perhaps my say this won't be viewed as biased in any way

[derekkj 0]

Lord, there was a time that I was almost as addicted to the Curly Girl forum as VJ! Sorta fell off the no poo wagon awhile back, but am still using the shampoo and conditioner that I found there. It's called Activate (created by Latina's who apparently also have dry, frizzy, kinky, hard to manage hair), it's not expensive, has great slippage, is Curly Girl friendly, and while I usually can find it at RiteAid, they also have a website, http://www.activatebeauty.com/eng/index.cfm.

ETA: #######! I just noticed that Activate has almost tripled it's price online! Don't think it's worth that so it's back to the CG Forums to find something new. Might not be back for awhile. I have heard that Trader Joe's line is actually pretty good and inexpensive so that will probably be what I try next.

Edited August 2, 2007 by derekkj