Yo! Happy Wednesday!!!!

[Caladan 19]

Imus got canned for calling them hoes compared to the delicate little flowers of whatever team they owned. I don't think it was 'nappy' that was doing the offensive work.

'Nappy' can be used as an insult, but it wasn't in that thread. (Remember Napster? Took its name from the guy's nickname for having wild curly hair.) If your hair is kinky and curly and fragile, best off with a stylist or barber who knows what they're doing with it. And the ones that know what they're doing are the ones whose customer base deals with it, whether the base is African-American or wealthy curlyhaired women (i.e., Devacurl)

You can call around and ask if they have someone who knows what they're doing with curly hair, but I suspect that might be harder for men.

[peezey 0]

By Zine Magubane | April 12, 2007

WHEN DON IMUS called the Rutgers University basketball team a bunch of "nappy-headed ho ' s" he brought to the fore the degree to which black women's hair has served as a visible marker of our political and social marginalization.

Nappy, a historically derogatory term used to describe hair that is short and tightly coiled, is a preeminent example of how social and cultural ideas are transmitted through bodies. Since African women first arrived on American shores, the bends and twists of our hair have became markers of our subhuman status and convenient rationales for denying us our rightful claims to citizenship.

Establishing the upper and lower limits of humanity was of particular interest to Enlightenment era thinkers, who struggled to balance the ideals of the French Revolution and the Declaration of Independence with the fact of slavery. The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen did not discriminate on the basis of race or sex and had the potential to be applied universally. It was precisely because an appeal to natural rights could only be countered by proof of natural inequality that hair texture, one of the most obvious indicators of physical differences between the races, was seized upon. Nappy hair was demonstrable proof of the fact that neither human physiology nor human nature was uniform and, therefore, that social inequalities could be justified.

Saartjie Baartman, a South African "bushwoman," was exhibited like a circus freak in the Shows of London between 1810 and 1815. The leading French anatomist of the day, George Cuvier, speculated that Baartman might be the "missing link" between the human and animal worlds because of her "peculiar features" including her "enormous buttocks" and "short, curling hair."

In "Notes on the State of Virginia," Thomas Jefferson reflected on why it would be impossible to incorporate blacks into the body politic after emancipation. He concluded it was because of the differences "both physical and moral," chief among them the absence of long, flowing hair.

continued at the think above....

Edited August 2, 2007 by peezey

[peezey 0]

Imus got canned for calling them hoes compared to the delicate little flowers of whatever team they owned. I don't think it was 'nappy' that was doing the offensive work.

'Nappy' can be used as an insult, but it wasn't in that thread. (Remember Napster? Took its name from the guy's nickname for having wild curly hair.) If your hair is kinky and curly and fragile, best off with a stylist or barber who knows what they're doing with it. And the ones that know what they're doing are the ones whose customer base deals with it, whether the base is African-American or wealthy curlyhaired women (i.e., Devacurl)

You can call around and ask if they have someone who knows what they're doing with curly hair, but I suspect that might be harder for men.

If you watched the young women and listened to their interviews, "nappy headed" was equally as offensive to them, and many other african american women as hoes was. I posted an article. It's not hard to find this stuff from just a few months ago. There is really no argument about it. It's considered highly offensive for anyone to use the term who doesn't own it. I don't really care if some idiotic 18 year old's friends called him Napster, that only means they are ridiculously ignorant white kids that have no clue.

[Caladan 19]

Eh, fair enough, but does someone's wife have the right to describe her husband's hair as nappy? I don't know but I hadn't thought of the term as in the same category as other racially-charged words. There's a children's book called Nappy Hair. So it seems to me to vary a bit with context and no one seemed to me to be mean-spirited when discussing barbers.

But in any case, if you want curly hair cut properly, go to someone who knows what they're doing with it. Because people used to cutting straight hair will butcher it.

[peezey 0]

Eh, fair enough, but does someone's wife have the right to describe her husband's hair as nappy? I don't know but I hadn't thought of the term as in the same category as other racially-charged words. There's a children's book called Nappy Hair. So it seems to me to vary a bit with context and no one seemed to me to be mean-spirited when discussing barbers.

But in any case, if you want curly hair cut properly, go to someone who knows what they're doing with it. Because people used to cutting straight hair will butcher it.

I think the point is, when someone says it's offensive, who are we to question it? Obviously most people in the thread didn't find it offensive or know that it would be offensive, hence the repetitive use of the term. But when someone says hey, this is offensive to me, they should be given the respect of us shutting up, not fighting with her and telling her she's wrong and to chill out and to be prepared for a backlash. And IMO, a woman here calling her husband's hair nappy is inappropriate to me since no one here is married to an african american, no one here has a husband who's history includes this term.

Edited August 2, 2007 by peezey

[♥JP♥ 5]

Eh, fair enough, but does someone's wife have the right to describe her husband's hair as nappy? I don't know but I hadn't thought of the term as in the same category as other racially-charged words. There's a children's book called Nappy Hair. So it seems to me to vary a bit with context and no one seemed to me to be mean-spirited when discussing barbers.

But in any case, if you want curly hair cut properly, go to someone who knows what they're doing with it. Because people used to cutting straight hair will butcher it.

I think the point is, when someone says it's offensive, who are we to question it? Obviously most people in the thread didn't find it offensive or know that it would be offensive, hence the repetitive use of the term. But when someone says hey, this is offensive to me, they should be given the respect of us shutting up, not fighting with her and telling her she's wrong and to chill out and to be prepared for a backlash. And IMO, a woman here calling her husband's hair nappy is inappropriate to me since no one here is married to an african american, no one here has a husband who's history includes this term.

Saying you are offended and implying someone is a racist are 2 different things. If that person had merely said they were offended that would have been fine. But to go off saying people are making racist comments is wrong. That is offensive to me so who are you to question that?

[monnik 0]

I just got connected a little while ago (missed the whole Barbershop III thread), and had to chuckle at this:

I think the point is, when someone says it's offensive, who are we to question it? Obviously most people in the thread didn't find it offensive or know that it would be offensive, hence the repetitive use of the term. But when someone says hey, this is offensive to me, they should be given the respect of us shutting up, not fighting with her and telling her she's wrong and to chill out and to be prepared for a backlash. And IMO, a woman here calling her husband's hair nappy is inappropriate to me since no one here is married to an african american, no one here has a husband who's history includes this term.

I did go back and read, though. And it's sad that aj1 was offended by some comments. It's also too bad that her own personal truth couldn't be acknowledged fully in this forum (for whatever reasons I'm not sure..........too many opinions in one room, jumping to conclusions - either side, defensiveness-either side, or attitude-either side).

I, personally, didn't find it offensive and I even thought that the context of the conversation was clear enough that the intention to offend just wasn't there. (We all know that doesn't mean that noone WILL get offended.) That is just the way it goes.

Caladan was wise to bypass the whole offensiveness issue and address the topic - shopping around to find someone with experience cutting thick, curly, or whatever type of hair you have will be worth the search!

Last, but not least, I would like to say to aj1 - I am sorry that you felt offended.

[SimoFati 0]

Seeing as Casa sent his file on June 14th and they STILL don't have it....GRRRRRR... really makes me mad.

Just thought I would let you all know that we are SSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLL waiting for Rome to "log in" Hicham's file! AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

They haven't updated their case list yet either so we don't know if they have it logged in yet.

Let's all just take a tript o Rome and see what we can do! Rome? come on...how can this be a bad idea?

Not like we couldn't get some seriously good eats there too!!!!

I'll start booking the flight!!

YUMMMMMMMYY...tiramisu and lasagne...... oh and brick oven baked pizza and calzone oh let me stop now

how about gelato ooooooooohhhhhhhhhh I miss italian gelato. I wish I could get hubby to bring some with him

[peezey 0]

Saying you are offended and implying someone is a racist are 2 different things. If that person had merely said they were offended that would have been fine. But to go off saying people are making racist comments is wrong. That is offensive to me so who are you to question that?

Just because you are ignorant of the fact that it is racist to use the term, doesn't mean it isn't. Why did you have to tell her to CHILL OUT? Why were you so quick to discount her feelings about it all? Your intentions weren't bad, but she was offended and you turned it around on her.

Edited August 2, 2007 by peezey

[allousa 1]

Peezy - I am surprised by your comments chastizing someone for being rude. I have seen where you have offended people by your comments, but you disregard their feelings by calling them idiots.

That being said, I do think you have made many helpful posts with some really good information.

Edited August 2, 2007 by allousa

[♥JP♥ 5]

Saying you are offended and implying someone is a racist are 2 different things. If that person had merely said they were offended that would have been fine. But to go off saying people are making racist comments is wrong. That is offensive to me so who are you to question that?

Just because you are ignorant of the fact that it is racist to use the term, doesn't mean it isn't. Why did you have to tell her to CHILL OUT? Why were you so quick to discount her feelings about it all? Your intentions weren't bad, but she was offended and you turned it around on her.

It's actually funny that you are doing to me, the same thing you claim I did to her. Maybe the word can be considered a racist word when its used that way. But I think YOU are the ignorant one here, because it was clearly not used in a racist way. I have nappy hair, am I being racist towards myself? I don't think so.

By the way, you can be offended without insulting people. Did you see the way MelindaandTarek handled it? She was offended and stated that,without calling or implying anyone was racist. Now I think YOU need to chill out.

Peezy - I am surprised by your comments chastizing someone for being rude. I have seen where you have offended people by your comments, but you disregard their feelings by calling them idiots.

That being said, I do think you have made many helpful posts with some really good information.

I don't think I was rude, I think it was rude to take someones comments out of context and imply that person is a racist.

Please don't get me wrong, I consider Peezey my friend and I think she is very helpful and I don't see this as her chastizing me. Friends don't always agree on things. However I do use the word nappy to describe *my* hair and if anyone is gonna call me a racist for that then I DO have something to say.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I didn't see the other thread until after it was closed, but now I see the discussion has continued here, so I'd like to respond.

Peezey's comments are absolutely on target here.

Now of course I don't think anyone who responded is "racist." I think most of the people using the term in the other thread never dreamed that it might be interpeted as something derogatory.

But I think there is a major misunderstanding of what the term "nappy" means to the African-American community, and why this term is considered so insulting when used in reference to black people in the Americas, and why it got the response that it did (as happened with the Don Imus remarks.)

"Nappy" and "natty" (the version used in much of the English-speaking Caribbean) have historically meant "black-type" hair with a negative connotation -- as opposed to the "white-type" (implication: "good") hair. This is of course is an extremely racist idea.

And yes -- sadly -- because of racism, this idea became an entrenched perception in the black community for a very long time -- as if beautiful, natural "black" hair was something to be ashamed of. That is why for years and years, you had black people using all sorts of damaging chemical treatments to try to straighten or "relax" their lovely God-given hair into forced "white" styles.

It wasn't until the "black pride" movement of the 1960s that many African-American people started to feel comfortable with their own natural hair, and began to "show it off" in its full glory. (Of course, such movements started in the Caribbean much earlier -- you saw "dreadlocks" starting to be worn in Jamaica in the 1930s -- even there, this natural hairstyle was still considered far outside the socially acceptable mainstream until perhaps the late 1970s or 1980s.)

The term "nappy" can still be very hurtful -- because of the racist, insulting context. It is far from an innocuous description, although some in the thread certainly didn't realize that. It's true that some members of the black community may use the term among themselves as a "badge of honor" or sign of shared heritage (as some might even use the "N-word,") but it is almost always unacceptable for non-members of that community to use these words as casual descriptive terms.

Dread Natty Dreadlocks.

There is a reason it is called DREAD.

[mybackpages 0]

I too missed out ont he conversation last night. I think WOM summed up my feelings on this pretty well so I will only add that it was the ignorance that I found more offensive than the word.

Why do people think "African-American" hair is so unusual compared to the rest of the world? What is African american hair anyway? African americans have hair that comes in all kinds of textures.

sigh...

I think people ought to get out of their own back yards more often - esp those who want to marry into a different culture. I am so tired of hearing generalizations made based on ethnocentric beliefs. I get scared thinking about how many americans live in these single minded culural boxes. Can you spell diversity?

There I said it.

[Jenn! 918]

Here was an interesting article from The Boston Globe around the time of the Imus controversy:

Why 'nappy' is offensive

By Zine Magubane | April 12, 2007

WHEN DON IMUS called the Rutgers University basketball team a bunch of "nappy-headed ho ' s" he brought to the fore the degree to which black women's hair has served as a visible marker of our political and social marginalization.

Nappy, a historically derogatory term used to describe hair that is short and tightly coiled, is a preeminent example of how social and cultural ideas are transmitted through bodies. Since African women first arrived on American shores, the bends and twists of our hair have became markers of our subhuman status and convenient rationales for denying us our rightful claims to citizenship.

Establishing the upper and lower limits of humanity was of particular interest to Enlightenment era thinkers, who struggled to balance the ideals of the French Revolution and the Declaration of Independence with the fact of slavery. The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen did not discriminate on the basis of race or sex and had the potential to be applied universally. It was precisely because an appeal to natural rights could only be countered by proof of natural inequality that hair texture, one of the most obvious indicators of physical differences between the races, was seized upon. Nappy hair was demonstrable proof of the fact that neither human physiology nor human nature was uniform and, therefore, that social inequalities could be justified.

Saartjie Baartman, a South African "bushwoman," was exhibited like a circus freak in the Shows of London between 1810 and 1815. The leading French anatomist of the day, George Cuvier, speculated that Baartman might be the "missing link" between the human and animal worlds because of her "peculiar features" including her "enormous buttocks" and "short, curling hair."

In "Notes on the State of Virginia," Thomas Jefferson reflected on why it would be impossible to incorporate blacks into the body politic after emancipation. He concluded it was because of the differences "both physical and moral," chief among them the absence of long, flowing hair.

For a runaway slave, the kink in her hair could mean the difference between freedom in the North and enslavement or worse if she were to be caught and returned to her master. Miscegenation meant that some slaves had skin as light as whites and the rule of thumb was that hair was a more reliable indicator than skin of a person's racial heritage. Thus, runaway slaves often shaved their heads in order to get rid of any evidence of their ancestry and posters advertising for fugitive slaves often warned slave catchers to be on the lookout for runaways with shaved heads : "They might pass for white."

In the late 1960s, after the FBI declared Angela Davis one of the country's 10 most wanted criminals, thousands of other law-abiding, Afro-wearing African-American women became targets of state repression -- accosted, harassed, and arrested by police, the FBI, and immigration agents. The "wanted" posters that featured Davis, her huge Afro framing her face like a halo, appeared in post offices and government buildings all over America, not to mention on television and in Life magazine. Her "nappy hair" served not only to structure popular opinions about her as a dangerous criminal, but also made it possible to deny the rights of due process and habeas corpus to any young black woman, simply on the basis of her hairstyle.

For African-American women, the personal has always been political. What grows out of our head can mean the difference between being a citizen and being a subject; being enslaved or free; alive or dead. As Don Imus found out this week, 300 years of a tangled and painful racial history cannot be washed away with a simple apology.

[Caladan 19]

It's not unusual hair compared to the rest of the world, but it is a minority in the U.S. Which is the only reason it might make sense to find a barber who knows what he's doing with it, and why a barber who serves an ethnic group with hair with a similar texture is probably not a bad proxy for 'won't get fed up and shave my husband's head because it won't lie flat.'

And while African-American hair does come in a range of styles and textures, it tends to be more kinky, and more fragile than even comparably curly hair from people of European descent. It needs different treatment and hair care. That's not to say there's anything wrong with it! But just as a blunt cut won't work on my curls (my hair was NOT curled for the wedding pics. It does that on its own.), a salon designed for people with long straight hair with a loose wavy probably isn't the best place for a person with tight curls to try to get a haircut because the stylist isn't going to have a clue. I know amira knows this site about curls.

A high-end salon with someone trained by Ouidad or Devacurl will make curls look awesome, but that's probably a wasted expense on a man who just wants a haircut.