Yo! Happy Wednesday!!!!

[♥JP♥ 5]

Lord, there was a time that I was almost as addicted to the Curly Girl forum as VJ! Sorta fell off the no poo wagon awhile back, but am still using the shampoo and conditioner that I found there. It's called Activate (created by Latina's who apparently also have dry, frizzy, kinky, hard to manage hair), it's not expensive, has great slippage, is Curly Girl friendly, and while I usually can find it at RiteAid, they also have a website, http://www.activatebeauty.com/eng/index.cfm.

ETA: #######! I just noticed that Activate has almost tripled it's price online! Don't think it's worth that so it's back to the CG Forums to find something new. Might not be back for awhile. I have heard that Trader Joe's line is actually pretty good and inexpensive so that will probably be what I try next.

Thanks for the tip! I will have to try that.

[LaL 418]

Im still doing a mild version of "no poo"... i use only burt's bees and its watered down to the point where it really is only a rinse. No real suds come of it, and my hair is perfectly revived from the colr treatments I did. Now I only use that, henna w/ indigo and plop it. couldnt be happier!

[peezey 0]

Ladies here keep insisting they have curly hair so it's ok to say nappy. I would like to know how many women here have been OPPRESSED or otherwise treated inappropriately BECAUSE OF THEIR HAIR?

My best friend's mother is black and her father is white. My friend has this gorgeous curly hair that she wears naturally curly 360 days of the year. But this is the thing. Anyone and everyone comments on her hair. Strangers, not-so strangers, everyone. People touch it, ask if it's her real hair, ask if she's ever thought of straightening it, as if it's a weave, ask "what are you" so they can figure out why she has kinky hair. Strangers come up and touch her hair!!!!!!!!!! She blows her hair dry straight when she wants to put in big curlers, about 5 times a year. She has a long, successful work history, she has a college degree, she works OT constantly to prove herself. This matters later in the story.

She goes in for an interview for a promotion position. Has a great interview, is really excited, has previously been all but promised the position. She gets back to her office from the interview and her manager tells her the VP just called to say her interview went well, and he was really happy she chose to present herself really professionally that day. She was wearing what she always wears: skirt, heels, white shirt, cardigan. Do you know the only difference in her "professional" appearance that day was that she has BLOWN OUT HER HAIR STRAIGHT?

And she didn't get the job. Someone with less experience and no college degree got the job.

Now, please, someone tell me who but black women faces accosting, invasive questions about her hair, touching her hair, and comments at work that clearly show people have an issue with naturally curly african american hair, and wearing it that way causes you to lose a promotion?

Edited August 2, 2007 by peezey

[♥JP♥ 5]

Ladies here keep insisting they have curly hair so it's ok to say nappy. I would like to know how many women here have been OPPRESSED or otherwise treated inappropriately BECAUSE OF THEIR HAIR?

My best friend's mother is black and her father is white. My friend has this gorgeous curly hair that she wears naturally curly 360 days of the year. But this is the thing. Anyone and everyone comments on her hair. Strangers, not-so strangers, everyone. People touch it, ask if it's her real hair, ask if she's ever thought of straightening it, as if it's a weave, ask "what are you" so they can figure out why she has kinky hair. Strangers come up and touch her hair!!!!!!!!!! She blows her hair dry straight when she wants to put in big curlers, about 5 times a year. She has a long, successful work history, she has a college degree, she works OT constantly to prove herself. This matters later in the story.

She goes in for an interview for a promotion position. Has a great interview, is really excited, has previously been all but promised the position. She gets back to her office from the interview and her manager tells her the VP just called to say her interview went well, and he was really happy she chose to present herself really professionally that day. She was wearing what she always wears: skirt, heels, white shirt, cardigan. Do you know the only difference in her "professional" appearance that day was that she has BLOWN OUT HER HAIR STRAIGHT?

And she didn't get the job. Someone with less experience and no college degree got the job.

Now, please, someone tell me who but black women faces accosting, invasive questions about her hair, touching her hair, and comments at work that clearly show people have an issue with naturally curly african american hair, and wearing it that way causes you to lose a promotion?

There is NO connection between what you said and what Rahma said. She described her husbands hair as "nappy". She didn't say African American people had nappy hair. What is your big issue with this anyway? People are going to say what they want regardless of how much you argue about it. My hair is not just curly, its nappy, as in very kinky curls that are frizzy. If I choose to descirbe my hair that way, that is my choice.

You are digging and digging to make a connection that isn't there. First you compare Rahma's statements to the statements Imus made and the connection is simply NOT THERE and now you are talking about your friend losing her promotion? Why don't you call a hair salon and see how they descirbe hair in the real world. They have salons that speicalize in asian hair too, would it be racist if I suggested someone with stick straight hair visit a salon that specializes in Asian hair? Her statements were not made to be offensive and if a1 was offened she could have simply said that without implying that she was making a racist statement.

[♥JP♥ 5]

By the way, I just wanted to add that African American women are not the only women that have issues in the work place because of their hair. Many people feel that straight hair is more appropriate for the work place and looks more professional. I spend hours and hours making my hair straight to fit into this category.

[peezey 0]

Ladies here keep insisting they have curly hair so it's ok to say nappy. I would like to know how many women here have been OPPRESSED or otherwise treated inappropriately BECAUSE OF THEIR HAIR?

My best friend's mother is black and her father is white. My friend has this gorgeous curly hair that she wears naturally curly 360 days of the year. But this is the thing. Anyone and everyone comments on her hair. Strangers, not-so strangers, everyone. People touch it, ask if it's her real hair, ask if she's ever thought of straightening it, as if it's a weave, ask "what are you" so they can figure out why she has kinky hair. Strangers come up and touch her hair!!!!!!!!!! She blows her hair dry straight when she wants to put in big curlers, about 5 times a year. She has a long, successful work history, she has a college degree, she works OT constantly to prove herself. This matters later in the story.

She goes in for an interview for a promotion position. Has a great interview, is really excited, has previously been all but promised the position. She gets back to her office from the interview and her manager tells her the VP just called to say her interview went well, and he was really happy she chose to present herself really professionally that day. She was wearing what she always wears: skirt, heels, white shirt, cardigan. Do you know the only difference in her "professional" appearance that day was that she has BLOWN OUT HER HAIR STRAIGHT?

And she didn't get the job. Someone with less experience and no college degree got the job.

Now, please, someone tell me who but black women faces accosting, invasive questions about her hair, touching her hair, and comments at work that clearly show people have an issue with naturally curly african american hair, and wearing it that way causes you to lose a promotion?

There is NO connection between what you said and what Rahma said. She described her husbands hair as "nappy". She didn't say African American people had nappy hair. What is your big issue with this anyway? People are going to say what they want regardless of how much you argue about it. My hair is not just curly, its nappy, as in very kinky curls that are frizzy. If I choose to descirbe my hair that way, that is my choice.

You are digging and digging to make a connection that isn't there. First you compare Rahma's statements to the statements Imus made and the connection is simply NOT THERE and now you are talking about your friend losing her promotion? Why don't you call a hair salon and see how they descirbe hair in the real world. They have salons that speicalize in asian hair too, would it be racist if I suggested someone with stick straight hair visit a salon that specializes in Asian hair? Her statements were not made to be offensive and if a1 was offened she could have simply said that without implying that she was making a racist statement.

To make the jump from her husband's nappy hair to suggesting he go to an African American barber DOES say African Americans have nappy hair. What else could it possibly mean?

People make racist statements when they don't mean to. Jen said something a1 felt was racist. Did Jen mean to be racist? No, she didn't. Does that mean it wasn't racist? No, it doesn't.

"stick straight" isn't a racially loaded phrase.

I'm not digging, these are real life examples of what african american women face everyday. You clearly don't care and would like to continue to use the word and would like to continue to insist you are right no matter how many african american women post here to say they find it offensive, so go forth with it.

You speak for the inner circle of arabs all the time, so why can't someone speak for african american women on this point (a1, jodo)? You aren't black, you will never be black, you will never know what it feels like to be black, you will never be in the inner circle, so you will never know how it feels.

Edited August 2, 2007 by peezey

[♥JP♥ 5]

Ladies here keep insisting they have curly hair so it's ok to say nappy. I would like to know how many women here have been OPPRESSED or otherwise treated inappropriately BECAUSE OF THEIR HAIR?

My best friend's mother is black and her father is white. My friend has this gorgeous curly hair that she wears naturally curly 360 days of the year. But this is the thing. Anyone and everyone comments on her hair. Strangers, not-so strangers, everyone. People touch it, ask if it's her real hair, ask if she's ever thought of straightening it, as if it's a weave, ask "what are you" so they can figure out why she has kinky hair. Strangers come up and touch her hair!!!!!!!!!! She blows her hair dry straight when she wants to put in big curlers, about 5 times a year. She has a long, successful work history, she has a college degree, she works OT constantly to prove herself. This matters later in the story.

She goes in for an interview for a promotion position. Has a great interview, is really excited, has previously been all but promised the position. She gets back to her office from the interview and her manager tells her the VP just called to say her interview went well, and he was really happy she chose to present herself really professionally that day. She was wearing what she always wears: skirt, heels, white shirt, cardigan. Do you know the only difference in her "professional" appearance that day was that she has BLOWN OUT HER HAIR STRAIGHT?

And she didn't get the job. Someone with less experience and no college degree got the job.

Now, please, someone tell me who but black women faces accosting, invasive questions about her hair, touching her hair, and comments at work that clearly show people have an issue with naturally curly african american hair, and wearing it that way causes you to lose a promotion?

There is NO connection between what you said and what Rahma said. She described her husbands hair as "nappy". She didn't say African American people had nappy hair. What is your big issue with this anyway? People are going to say what they want regardless of how much you argue about it. My hair is not just curly, its nappy, as in very kinky curls that are frizzy. If I choose to descirbe my hair that way, that is my choice.

You are digging and digging to make a connection that isn't there. First you compare Rahma's statements to the statements Imus made and the connection is simply NOT THERE and now you are talking about your friend losing her promotion? Why don't you call a hair salon and see how they descirbe hair in the real world. They have salons that speicalize in asian hair too, would it be racist if I suggested someone with stick straight hair visit a salon that specializes in Asian hair? Her statements were not made to be offensive and if a1 was offened she could have simply said that without implying that she was making a racist statement.

To make the jump from her husband's nappy hair to suggesting he go to an African American barber DOES say African Americans have nappy hair. What else could it possibly mean?

People make racist statements when they don't mean to. Jen said something a1 felt was racist. Did Jen mean to be racist? No, she didn't. Does that mean it wasn't racist? No, it doesn't.

"stick straight" isn't a racially loaded phrase.

I'm not digging, these are real life examples of what african american women face everyday. You clearly don't care and would like to continue to use the word and would like to continue to insist you are right no matter how many african american women post here to say they find it offensive, so go forth with it.

You speak for the inner circle of arabs all the time, so why can't someone speak for african american women on this point (a1, jodo)? You aren't black, you will never be black, you will never know what it feels like to be black, you will never be in the inner circle, so you will never know how it feels.

First of all, Rahma suggested that someone see a barber that "has a large african american clientele" she never said go see an african american barber. You are digging, as you do with many subjects here on VJ. You are looking for your daily dose of drama.

Who are you to tell me if I care or not? I desbribe MY OWN hair as nappy not anyone elses. I speak for the inner circle of arabs and so do you as do many others. I never said she couldnt speak for black women so don't put words in my mouth however when the women on VJ make general statements about arabs I call them racists or even imply they are. I never claimed to be black or claimed to be in the inner circle or even claimed to know how a black woman feels.

Again you are making something out of nothing and it seems that no matter how many people tell you that, you want to keep going forth with it, so go forth with it.

[peezey 0]

You've made it clear your intentions and what you think of the word, what more is there for you to say? You can go on and on with your ad hominem attacks, but you're the one who is having a fit over this, not me. I think A1 and Jodo are the ones to listen to here.

[♥JP♥ 5]

You've made it clear your intentions and what you think of the word, what more is there for you to say? You can go on and on with your ad hominem attacks, but you're the one who is having a fit over this, not me. I think A1 and Jodo are the ones to listen to here.

Let me remind you that you keep responding and you have done more talking than A1 and Jodo and definitly just as much talking as I have on the subject. So what more is there for you to say?

[Marry American 0]

I didn't see the other thread until after it was closed, but now I see the discussion has continued here, so I'd like to respond.

Peezey's comments are absolutely on target here.

Now of course I don't think anyone who responded is "racist." I think most of the people using the term in the other thread never dreamed that it might be interpeted as something derogatory.

But I think there is a major misunderstanding of what the term "nappy" means to the African-American community, and why this term is considered so insulting when used in reference to black people in the Americas, and why it got the response that it did (as happened with the Don Imus remarks.)

"Nappy" and "natty" (the version used in much of the English-speaking Caribbean) have historically meant "black-type" hair with a negative connotation -- as opposed to the "white-type" (implication: "good") hair. This is of course is an extremely racist idea.

And yes -- sadly -- because of racism, this idea became an entrenched perception in the black community for a very long time -- as if beautiful, natural "black" hair was something to be ashamed of. That is why for years and years, you had black people using all sorts of damaging chemical treatments to try to straighten or "relax" their lovely God-given hair into forced "white" styles.

It wasn't until the "black pride" movement of the 1960s that many African-American people started to feel comfortable with their own natural hair, and began to "show it off" in its full glory. (Of course, such movements started in the Caribbean much earlier -- you saw "dreadlocks" starting to be worn in Jamaica in the 1930s -- even there, this natural hairstyle was still considered far outside the socially acceptable mainstream until perhaps the late 1970s or 1980s.)

The term "nappy" can still be very hurtful -- because of the racist, insulting context. It is far from an innocuous description, although some in the thread certainly didn't realize that. It's true that some members of the black community may use the term among themselves as a "badge of honor" or sign of shared heritage (as some might even use the "N-word,") but it is almost always unacceptable for non-members of that community to use these words as casual descriptive terms.

Dread Natty Dreadlocks.

There is a reason it is called DREAD.

Imus got the response he did after a long history of saying inappropriate remarks. It also got the response it did because he called them 'nappy headed hoes'.

Dreadlocks are now called locks without the dreaded part being attached.

I'm glad I was never forced into white hairstyles. Stringy straight hair has never been my thing. I prefer my naturally curly hair.

[ya falaha! 0]

I have straight hair and I'm offended by the term "stringy"!!!!

kidding

[Marry American 0]

I have straight hair and I'm offended by the term "stringy"!!!!

kidding

Nice picture I used stringy hair on purpose. Since people can make generalizations about the African-American community, I made one too. I find this entire thread offensive. I did not find the other thread offensive at all. I found some statements that I thought were way more offensive than what was in that thread. I would hate to make generalizations about an entire race when I am not from that race. I would never sum up all white people and there are an awful lot of white people in my family.

[Caladan 19]

peezey, your general point, that African-American women have had a long and difficult history with their hair and that 'nappy' is a loaded term that shouldn't be used casually is correct, but it's just not true that it's only African-American women who have issues with people coming up and touching their hair, asking about it, and commenting how much more professional it looks when it's straightened. I have had people pull my curls while standing in an elevator on the way to work, and if you read about women and hair, curly hair for a long time has been considered 'ethnic' (meaning Jewish, Latina, biracial or Italian, mostly) and thus not professional. Most of the girls I worked with would blow it out straight and I get comments from strangers walking through the neighborhood often enough that it's not remarkable. One anecdote I heard was of a girl with curly hair being at a party in DC, a party with a bunch of buttoned-up pols, and someone remarking that she must be a Democrat, because no Republican would wear her hair like that. The political parties cited of course don't matter, but women's hair in general is a touchy issue.

It's just a whole hell of a lot worse for African-American women.

On the other hand, I'm uncomfortable with any form of argument that says 'X is a member of group Y and therefore is the final authority on information about Y', because it seems to treat all members of the group as alike and very Other rather than individuals who have their own preferences and experiences. 'Nappy' is offensive because of its history, not by fiat, you know? Just like you can't decide that the n-word isn't offensive by finding one black guy whom it doesn't bother.

Apologies if I've given offense to anyone. I'd usually agree whole-hearted with peezey on something like this, but 'nappy' seems a lot more borderline to me than the n-word which no one is even bold enough to type.

[Marry American 0]

peezey, your general point, that African-American women have had a long and difficult history with their hair and that 'nappy' is a loaded term that shouldn't be used casually is correct, but it's just not true that it's only African-American women who have issues with people coming up and touching their hair, asking about it, and commenting how much more professional it looks when it's straightened. I have had people pull my curls while standing in an elevator on the way to work, and if you read about women and hair, curly hair for a long time has been considered 'ethnic' (meaning Jewish, Latina, biracial or Italian, mostly) and thus not professional. Most of the girls I worked with would blow it out straight and I get comments from strangers walking through the neighborhood often enough that it's not remarkable. One anecdote I heard was of a girl with curly hair being at a party in DC, a party with a bunch of buttoned-up pols, and someone remarking that she must be a Democrat, because no Republican would wear her hair like that. The political parties cited of course don't matter, but women's hair in general is a touchy issue.

It's just a whole hell of a lot worse for African-American women.

On the other hand, I'm uncomfortable with any form of argument that says 'X is a member of group Y and therefore is the final authority on information about Y', because it seems to treat all members of the group as alike and very Other rather than individuals who have their own preferences and experiences. 'Nappy' is offensive because of its history, not by fiat, you know? Just like you can't decide that the n-word isn't offensive by finding one black guy whom it doesn't bother.

Apologies if I've given offense to anyone. I'd usually agree whole-hearted with peezey on something like this, but 'nappy' seems a lot more borderline to me than the n-word which no one is even bold enough to type.

There has been mention to the n-word in MENA. Maybe not typed completely.

And to add something further, I went to an African-American woman and got a haircut. She jacked my hair up. I showed her a picture and she cut me bald. It cost me $69. She has been in business for over 15 years. From now on, I am going to the salon that does my facials and let white women work with my naturally bald curly hair.

[ya falaha! 0]

Thanks! That was taken outside the airport. Can you tell how happy I was?

Yeah I figured you used it to make a point. My hair is fine and straight and if I don't wash it every day it is kinda stringy.

My gf and I talk about race generalizations all the time (usually jokingly). She always tells me that I'm more a black girl than she is (based on things I like and certain behaviors I have that are stereotypical of black ppl). I always tell her she's the whitest black girl I know. She listens to Josh Grobin for cryin' out loud!

I have straight hair and I'm offended by the term "stringy"!!!!

kidding

Nice picture I used stringy hair on purpose. Since people can make generalizations about the African-American community, I made one too. I find this entire thread offensive. I did not find the other thread offensive at all. I found some statements that I thought were way more offensive than what was in that thread. I would hate to make generalizations about an entire race when I am not from that race. I would never sum up all white people and there are an awful lot of white people in my family.