Embracing Illegals

[natty bumppo 293]

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

Gary ... missed something here or something got broken.

I wouldn't have the same options or opportunities in todays world. I busted my a$$ to make $$ for my education and so did my friends. We all know that today others take the jobs we did and todays children mostly EXPECT their parents to pay for everything

[GaryC 7]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

You can still do it, you just have more people to compete against for the job.

Are you smoking something you shouldn't? Why in the hell should I, an American citizen, have to compete for a manual labor job with someone here that is here illegally? What happened to my rights? You just giving my rights to a law breaking illegal!! Boy! Talk about fair!!!

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Face it dude, you are backed into a corner and you cannot defend your position. Now your just making it up as you go. You lost the argument, be an adult and admit it.

How is that wrong? Did Corporations decide who is a legal worker and who is not? No they don't The government does that, and the government requires companies to follow the law. So in essence, the government has restricted the market to hire only workers with legal status. If this is wrong, then show me how its wrong?

Tell that to the drug dealers, money launderer's, pimps, organized crime bosses and every other illegal activity that makes money. You are restricting their ability to make money in the free market. They are employing people. Should we care if what they are doing is illegal?

[Dan J 277]

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Presuably a free market should not see someones age - child labour anyone?

Thats correct. If society doesn't like that, they can have the government impose limitations on the market.

[GaryC 7]

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

Gary ... missed something here or something got broken.

I wouldn't have the same options or opportunities in todays world. I busted my a$$ to make $$ for my education and so did my friends. We all know that today others take the jobs we did and todays children mostly EXPECT their parents to pay for everything

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

[Dan J 277]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

You can still do it, you just have more people to compete against for the job.

Are you smoking something you shouldn't? Why in the hell should I, an American citizen, have to compete for a manual labor job with someone here that is here illegally? What happened to my rights? You just giving my rights to a law breaking illegal!! Boy! Talk about fair!!!

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Face it dude, you are backed into a corner and you cannot defend your position. Now your just making it up as you go. You lost the argument, be an adult and admit it.

How is that wrong? Did Corporations decide who is a legal worker and who is not? No they don't The government does that, and the government requires companies to follow the law. So in essence, the government has restricted the market to hire only workers with legal status. If this is wrong, then show me how its wrong?

Tell that to the drug dealers, money launderer's, pimps, organized crime bosses and every other illegal activity that makes money. You are restricting their ability to make money in the free market. They are employing people. Should we care if what they are doing is illegal?

What does that have to do with anything? The free market doesn't really care. Society and the government does.

[Dan J 277]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

[GaryC 7]

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Presuably a free market should not see someones age - child labour anyone?

Thats correct. If society doesn't like that, they can have the government impose limitations on the market.

HAHAHA!!! Ok, ----- here it comes-------- THE GOVERNMENT IMPOSES A LIMIT ON ILLEGALS!!!! IT IS AGAINST THE LAW FOR AN ALIEN TO WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!! You keep digging a hole for yourself. Please stop digging!!!

[TinTin and Samby 11]

Ok Dan. It's clear. You're a free market guy. Nothing wrong with that. The part that we dont get is why the free market should benefit from illegal actions.

Your reply to Gary, above, is that he can still do those jobs, but he just has more competition for them. So, in your mind, legal and illegal residents should have equal standing in competing for those jobs? How does that work? show me another country where that thought is embraced.

Lets looks at the Applebees example. The premise here in this thread today is that some of the kitchen staff are illegal residents. And your comments seem to say that that's ok, its the free market - all will work out for the good. But the free market in this scenario is not making choices that are legal.

Now, if Applebees decided to outsource their cooking to another country where the wages were lower and they thought they could work out a business model that would incorporate this kind of outsourcing then - sure - that's a legal choice they can make. There would still be outcries from many about the outsourcing of local jobs, but it would be a policy discussion, not a legal discussion.

But according to your line of reasoning, They can have their cake and eat it too! But that's where the rub is. They can't say, "well, we want to outsource the cooking to a lower wage work force, but sending food orders over the border and transporting back the cooked food wont work for our customers, cause they like their food hot and dont have 2 days to wait to get their grilled cheese & BLT sandwiches back" <grin>. Since we still want the lower cost, we will just bring that lower cost work force here - oh well, so sad, too bad, if the workers come here ilegally.

Its the same as if Applebees decided that OSHA regulaations for worker safety were costing too much money and so they simply decided that they didnt want to pay for that and they were not going to follow them. According to your logic, that would be just fine. Free market and all... companies can choose what they want and if they have customer willing to buy, then all is good to go.....

It just doesn't compute like that....

Warm Regards,

Samby

Edited August 2, 2007 by Samby

[Dan J 277]

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Presuably a free market should not see someones age - child labour anyone?

Thats correct. If society doesn't like that, they can have the government impose limitations on the market.

HAHAHA!!! Ok, ----- here it comes-------- THE GOVERNMENT IMPOSES A LIMIT ON ILLEGALS!!!! IT IS AGAINST THE LAW FOR AN ALIEN TO WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!! You keep digging a hole for yourself. Please stop digging!!!

They have done that, just a poor job of enforcing it. Now they are a part of the free market. Removing them is not without consequences.

[GaryC 7]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

YES!!!!! I should only compete with legal residence of the USA!!! It's a huge double standard. If I want the job the employer must pay me the minimum wage, withhold SSN and taxes. The illegal is getting paid cash. The employer isn't going to give me a second look, I am to expensive. You want to give an unfair advantage to someone that isn't even supposed to be here!

[natty bumppo 293]

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

Gary ... missed something here or something got broken.

I wouldn't have the same options or opportunities in todays world. I busted my a$$ to make $$ for my education and so did my friends. We all know that today others take the jobs we did and todays children mostly EXPECT their parents to pay for everything

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

I worked my a$$ off to pay for my education which included 16 hours days for 2 jobs during summer months.

Anyone who takes the opportunity away from a USC to be financially responsible for their own education or future ... this person also needs to leave with the others actively stealing from a USCs future ... and that of the next generation of legal USCs.

[Dan J 277]

Ok Dan. It's clear. You're a free market guy. Nothing wrong with that. The part that we dont get is why the free market should benefit from illegal actions.

Your reply to Gary, above, is that he can still do those jobs, but he just has more competition for them. So, in your mind, legal and illegal residents should have equal standing in competing for those jobs? How does that work? show me another country where that thought is embraced.

Lets looks at the Applebees example. The premise here in this thread today is that some of the kitchen staff are illegal residents. And your comments seem to say that that's ok, its the free market - all will work out for the good. But the free market in this scenario is not making choices that are legal.

Now, if Applebees decided to outsource their cooking to another country where the wages were lower and they thought they could work out a business model that would incorporate this kind of outsourcing then - sure - that's a legal choice they can make. There would still be outcries from many about the outsourcing of local jobs, but it would be a policy discussion, not a legal discussion.

But according to your line of reasoning, They can have their cake and eat it too! But that's where the rub is. They can't say, "well, we want to outsource the cooking to a lower wage work force, but sending food orders over the border and transporting back the cooked food wont work for our customers, cause they like their food hot and dont have 2 days to wait to get their grilled cheese & BLT sandwiches back" <grin>. Since we still want the lower cost, we will just bring that lower cost work force here - oh well, so sad, too bad, if the workers come here ilegally.

Its the same as if Applebees decided that OSHA regulaations for worker safety were costing too much money and so they simply decided that they didnt want to pay for that and they were not going to follow them. According to your logic, that would be just fine. Free market and all... companies can choose what they want and if they have customer willing to buy, then all is good to go.....

It just doesn't compute like that....

Warm Regards,

Samby

As far as the free market is concerned, substitute legal workers for higher paid workers and illegal workers for lower paid workers. Would you still have a problem with it? Think of the market beyond countries and governments. If someone wants to do the same work for less money, what is wrong if the market wants to take advantage if it?

[Dan J 277]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

YES!!!!! I should only compete with legal residence of the USA!!! It's a huge double standard. If I want the job the employer must pay me the minimum wage, withhold SSN and taxes. The illegal is getting paid cash. The employer isn't going to give me a second look, I am to expensive. You want to give an unfair advantage to someone that isn't even supposed to be here!

So in other words Gary, Free market, but not before nationalism?

[natty bumppo 293]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

Edited August 2, 2007 by Natty Bumppo

[TinTin and Samby 11]

Ok Dan. It's clear. You're a free market guy. Nothing wrong with that. The part that we dont get is why the free market should benefit from illegal actions.

Your reply to Gary, above, is that he can still do those jobs, but he just has more competition for them. So, in your mind, legal and illegal residents should have equal standing in competing for those jobs? How does that work? show me another country where that thought is embraced.

Lets looks at the Applebees example. The premise here in this thread today is that some of the kitchen staff are illegal residents. And your comments seem to say that that's ok, its the free market - all will work out for the good. But the free market in this scenario is not making choices that are legal.

Now, if Applebees decided to outsource their cooking to another country where the wages were lower and they thought they could work out a business model that would incorporate this kind of outsourcing then - sure - that's a legal choice they can make. There would still be outcries from many about the outsourcing of local jobs, but it would be a policy discussion, not a legal discussion.

But according to your line of reasoning, They can have their cake and eat it too! But that's where the rub is. They can't say, "well, we want to outsource the cooking to a lower wage work force, but sending food orders over the border and transporting back the cooked food wont work for our customers, cause they like their food hot and dont have 2 days to wait to get their grilled cheese & BLT sandwiches back" <grin>. Since we still want the lower cost, we will just bring that lower cost work force here - oh well, so sad, too bad, if the workers come here ilegally.

Its the same as if Applebees decided that OSHA regulaations for worker safety were costing too much money and so they simply decided that they didnt want to pay for that and they were not going to follow them. According to your logic, that would be just fine. Free market and all... companies can choose what they want and if they have customer willing to buy, then all is good to go.....

It just doesn't compute like that....

Warm Regards,

Samby

As far as the free market is concerned, substitute legal workers for higher paid workers and illegal workers for lower paid workers. Would you still have a problem with it? Think of the market beyond countries and governments. If someone wants to do the same work for less money, what is wrong if the market wants to take advantage if it?

Nothing is wrong as long as the underlying pool of workers all are coming under the same controls, rules and laws. But until Global Earth evolves to a place where there is only a WORLD CITIZEN, not American's, Germans, Columbians, Canadians, Vietnamese, etc, etc...Then Free market contructs need to take into account these differences - as they do today. It is only those companies who are not LEGALLY following those defined (read LEGALLY CODIFIED) constructs (such as only hiring local workers who are legally authorized to work in that locale) that I have a problem with.

Warm Regards,

Samby

Edited August 2, 2007 by Samby