Embracing Illegals

[GaryC 7]

Dan, I am curious of how you reconcile your progressive views with the undeniable consequences of your pro-illegal stance. You do understand that illegal labor mostly benefits rich people and hurts our own poor don't you? The business's that employ illegals don't pass on the savings to us, they pocket it. And the fact that we have 10-20 million people here willing to work for sub-minimum wages most definitely hurts a USC that is without skills. It sounds like you have bought the rich and big business fear mongering. They are the ones that really reap profits from illegals. Please tell me how you fit that into your values.

Getting rid of illegal aliens is not going to do much to improve the life of the poor in our country. Thats a separate issue.

Businesses don't put the money under a mattress for a rainy day. They reinvest it and spend it in different parts of the economy. They don't need to pass the saving directly to us in the cost of products for us to benefit. Isn't that why Bush wanted his taxes cuts, so businesses would take the money saved and use it?

I work for a company that doesn't do business with illegal aliens or even hires them. I make enough money where a rise in prices wouldn't affect me much. So I should have nothing to worry about right? Well our customers are small to medium manufacturers, who may sell products to, or may hire illegal immigrations in their companies. If their sales decrease, or they have to pay more for workers, and they cant pass on the costs in the product price. Well then they will have less money to spend. Which could mean, they will decide to stop spending their money with us. Then my company is affected. While we may easily be able to absorb a few customers cutting our services and I would make a bit less with profit sharing. We would be in trouble, if the a significant number of customers cut our services. Which may not happen immediately, but over time, as the ripple effects go through the economy, more customers may drop our services.

Nice evasion. I will ask you again, how do you reconcile your progressive views with the fact that the rich and business's are the ones profiting from the cheap labor. How do you reconcile the fact that 10-20 million people that are working for sub-minimum wage are taking jobs away from our own unskilled workers? And if you think that cheap labor is good for our economy are you willing to scrap the minimum wage? Please enlighten me.

[Fandango 1,439]

Getting rid of illegal aliens is not going to do much to improve the life of the poor in our country. Thats a separate issue.

Businesses don't put the money under a mattress for a rainy day. They reinvest it and spend it in different parts of the economy. They don't need to pass the saving directly to us in the cost of products for us to benefit. Isn't that why Bush wanted his taxes cuts, so businesses would take the money saved and use it?

I work for a company that doesn't do business with illegal aliens or even hires them. I make enough money where a rise in prices wouldn't affect me much. So I should have nothing to worry about right? Well our customers are small to medium manufacturers, who may sell products to, or may hire illegal immigrations in their companies. If their sales decrease, or they have to pay more for workers, and they cant pass on the costs in the product price. Well then they will have less money to spend. Which could mean, they will decide to stop spending their money with us. Then my company is affected. While we may easily be able to absorb a few customers cutting our services and I would make a bit less with profit sharing. We would be in trouble, if the a significant number of customers cut our services. Which may not happen immediately, but over time, as the ripple effects go through the economy, more customers may drop our services.

So you're worried that if we stop exploiting these people, you're going to suffer.

Gary asked how your stance fits in with your values...I don't think you answered that.

[TinTin and Samby 11]

Why should ANYONE be considered illegal?

Because they snuck across the border instead of doing it the legal way.

Gary - surely you mean "because they snuck across the border instead of staying in

their home countries."

There is no "legal" way for floor sweepers and veg pickers to come here - or visa

categories for these people - they are just not needed here.

I'm tired of people saying "ooh those bastards - doing it illegally instead of following due

process". Please understand that there is no due process for them. No visa category

and no way to come here except sneaking across the border.

"We welcome legal immigrants" is essentially the same as "we don't want any more

immigrants", because it's virtually impossible to immigrate to the U.S. legally without

a family connection.

Your absolutely correct. They are not needed here. That is why they should go home. I don't understand you reasoning here. Because they are not needed they don't have a legal way of getting here. So that somehow makes it OK for them to break the law? We are not the worlds employment agency. We need to take care of our own. Let the other countries take care of theirs.

Exactly! Well Stated.

Warm Regards,

Samby

[natty bumppo 289]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

[TinTin and Samby 11]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Our economy did fine before they got here, it's doing well despite the enormous drain they represent in free schooling and health care and it will do just fine if they all left tomorrow. That is just some twisted logic that sounds scary to the uninformed to try and sway them to change their minds. It's called fear mongering.

Yeah, but now the economy has grown to take in those people. You cant expect business as usual when you remove 12 million people. Just like most business benefit from economic growth, most businesses also get hurt in a recession. Its not twisted logic, its just the market. If you change the market the market will come back and change you.

The last significant recession due to the dot com bubble. Tech companies were worst effected. But, according to your logic, the rest of the economy should have just been fine. Was it?

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

The last time I looked, the stock market was doing just fine. Much higher today than anytime before, during or after the tech bubble. Economies adjust, they find equilibrium. Deport 10M-20M illegal aliens today. The economy will survive and the health and diversity of America will be better for it.

Warm Regards,

Samby

[Dan J 277]

Dan, I am curious of how you reconcile your progressive views with the undeniable consequences of your pro-illegal stance. You do understand that illegal labor mostly benefits rich people and hurts our own poor don't you? The business's that employ illegals don't pass on the savings to us, they pocket it. And the fact that we have 10-20 million people here willing to work for sub-minimum wages most definitely hurts a USC that is without skills. It sounds like you have bought the rich and big business fear mongering. They are the ones that really reap profits from illegals. Please tell me how you fit that into your values.

Getting rid of illegal aliens is not going to do much to improve the life of the poor in our country. Thats a separate issue.

Businesses don't put the money under a mattress for a rainy day. They reinvest it and spend it in different parts of the economy. They don't need to pass the saving directly to us in the cost of products for us to benefit. Isn't that why Bush wanted his taxes cuts, so businesses would take the money saved and use it?

I work for a company that doesn't do business with illegal aliens or even hires them. I make enough money where a rise in prices wouldn't affect me much. So I should have nothing to worry about right? Well our customers are small to medium manufacturers, who may sell products to, or may hire illegal immigrations in their companies. If their sales decrease, or they have to pay more for workers, and they cant pass on the costs in the product price. Well then they will have less money to spend. Which could mean, they will decide to stop spending their money with us. Then my company is affected. While we may easily be able to absorb a few customers cutting our services and I would make a bit less with profit sharing. We would be in trouble, if the a significant number of customers cut our services. Which may not happen immediately, but over time, as the ripple effects go through the economy, more customers may drop our services.

Nice evasion. I will ask you again, how do you reconcile your progressive views with the fact that the rich and business's are the ones profiting from the cheap labor. How do you reconcile the fact that 10-20 million people that are working for sub-minimum wage are taking jobs away from our own unskilled workers? And if you think that cheap labor is good for our economy are you willing to scrap the minimum wage? Please enlighten me.

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

[GaryC 7]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

[Dan J 277]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Our economy did fine before they got here, it's doing well despite the enormous drain they represent in free schooling and health care and it will do just fine if they all left tomorrow. That is just some twisted logic that sounds scary to the uninformed to try and sway them to change their minds. It's called fear mongering.

Yeah, but now the economy has grown to take in those people. You cant expect business as usual when you remove 12 million people. Just like most business benefit from economic growth, most businesses also get hurt in a recession. Its not twisted logic, its just the market. If you change the market the market will come back and change you.

The last significant recession due to the dot com bubble. Tech companies were worst effected. But, according to your logic, the rest of the economy should have just been fine. Was it?

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

The last time I looked, the stock market was doing just fine. Much higher today than anytime before, during or after the tech bubble. Economies adjust, they find equilibrium. Deport 10M-20M illegal aliens today. The economy will survive and the health and diversity of America will be better for it.

Warm Regards,

Samby

And from where did it acquire this growth? Growth doesn't just magically appear. Growth occurs as a result of higher sales and lower costs. And which market is providing that?

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

You can still do it, you just have more people to compete against for the job.

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

Might we also use some of the extra tax money from the companies benefiting from illegals to lower the cost of collage? Then you may not really even need that job.

[GaryC 7]

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

[Boiler 44,824]

Fast Food Restaurants are not the obvious sponsors of H1 and L Visa's. You can live in denial but certainly where I am the majority of such establishments employ Undocumented Amercans, and of course other trades likewise.

I read a fascinating thread on another board. Basically Hubby was here Undocumented, they went through the waiver process, he comes back in legally and takes up his old job.

He expects a rise, no, he is now paying taxes etc not cash in hand, so his net pay goes down not up. Well its costing his Employer more, has to pay WC etc etc.

On top of that his colleagues do not take kindly to his new legal status, and he gets demoted.

The funny thing is that his wife is incensed and wants to know how to report the Employer!

Life in the real world.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Boiler

[Dan J 277]

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

[GaryC 7]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

You can still do it, you just have more people to compete against for the job.

Are you smoking something you shouldn't? Why in the hell should I, an American citizen, have to compete for a manual labor job with someone here that is here illegally? What happened to my rights? You just giving my rights to a law breaking illegal!! Boy! Talk about fair!!!

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Face it dude, you are backed into a corner and you cannot defend your position. Now your just making it up as you go. You lost the argument, be an adult and admit it.

[Boiler 44,824]

Dan, I am curious of how you reconcile your progressive views with the undeniable consequences of your pro-illegal stance. You do understand that illegal labor mostly benefits rich people and hurts our own poor don't you? The business's that employ illegals don't pass on the savings to us, they pocket it. And the fact that we have 10-20 million people here willing to work for sub-minimum wages most definitely hurts a USC that is without skills. It sounds like you have bought the rich and big business fear mongering. They are the ones that really reap profits from illegals. Please tell me how you fit that into your values.

Getting rid of illegal aliens is not going to do much to improve the life of the poor in our country. Thats a separate issue.

Businesses don't put the money under a mattress for a rainy day. They reinvest it and spend it in different parts of the economy. They don't need to pass the saving directly to us in the cost of products for us to benefit. Isn't that why Bush wanted his taxes cuts, so businesses would take the money saved and use it?

I work for a company that doesn't do business with illegal aliens or even hires them. I make enough money where a rise in prices wouldn't affect me much. So I should have nothing to worry about right? Well our customers are small to medium manufacturers, who may sell products to, or may hire illegal immigrations in their companies. If their sales decrease, or they have to pay more for workers, and they cant pass on the costs in the product price. Well then they will have less money to spend. Which could mean, they will decide to stop spending their money with us. Then my company is affected. While we may easily be able to absorb a few customers cutting our services and I would make a bit less with profit sharing. We would be in trouble, if the a significant number of customers cut our services. Which may not happen immediately, but over time, as the ripple effects go through the economy, more customers may drop our services.

Nice evasion. I will ask you again, how do you reconcile your progressive views with the fact that the rich and business's are the ones profiting from the cheap labor. How do you reconcile the fact that 10-20 million people that are working for sub-minimum wage are taking jobs away from our own unskilled workers? And if you think that cheap labor is good for our economy are you willing to scrap the minimum wage? Please enlighten me.

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

I thought Mr Bush had reduced tax on the rich, its mostly the middle that get hit, they do not have the ability for creative accounting etc.

Ditto on their Health Insurance premiums that are used to subsidise Hospitals who can not collect.

If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, and you can not outsource it, hire an illegal.

The race to the bottom.

[Dan J 277]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

You can still do it, you just have more people to compete against for the job.

Are you smoking something you shouldn't? Why in the hell should I, an American citizen, have to compete for a manual labor job with someone here that is here illegally? What happened to my rights? You just giving my rights to a law breaking illegal!! Boy! Talk about fair!!!

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Face it dude, you are backed into a corner and you cannot defend your position. Now your just making it up as you go. You lost the argument, be an adult and admit it.

How is that wrong? Did Corporations decide who is a legal worker and who is not? No they don't The government does that, and the government requires companies to follow the law. So in essence, the government has restricted the market to hire only workers with legal status. If this is wrong, then show me how its wrong?

[Boiler 44,824]

Are you expecting the market to take care of the poor? Thats not very profitable. Only the government can do anything in that regard. And they can do it with increase in tax money they get from a corporations increased profit.

When you pay someone less than what they need to live, even if thats more than minimum wage, is that exploiting the worker? To me it doesn't matter. Because the government will take more money in taxes from these corporations, and use it to provide benefits to those people they are poor. People in the market have choice too, if a company wants to pay you less than you want for a particular job, you don't have to work for them. If they can't find anyone willing to do the work them at the wage they want, supply and demand will force them to pay more. If a company is forcing someone to work against their will. Then arrest the owners.

Just let the market work. Let the government tax the rich and make up the difference. In the end it doesn't matter if your getting paid out of a company paycheck or that companies taxes.

So lets see, poor get taken care of, the economy grows, life is good, what is the problem? Companies have to compete with each other for sales. What is wrong with workers competing for jobs?

HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!! I am the biggest freemarket advocates you have ever seen (just ask Steven) but even I think this is over the top. You are allowing illegal activities drive the market!! The best cure for poor people is a strong job market and you are advocating giving the very jobs our own poor need to get out of their poverty and give them to illegal workers!!! And then have the government take care of our own poor!!!! Even I am not that cold hearted!!!

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

Presuably a free market should not see someones age - child labour anyone?