Embracing Illegals

[natty bumppo 293]

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

LisaD .. your words make me miss my friends in the UK ... thanks for the memory

Now back to topic

[Scott & Lai 12]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people.

So, where you don't have the free market, there are no poor people?

[Heracles 417]

Australia doesn't matter, it hasn't grown on a population of illegal immigrants, so it has nothing to loose. The US economy has grown on the work provided by illegal aliens and goods and services bought by them. You take that out, you take a hit.

Personally I do not deny they work hard. I see it all the time and am quite impressed with them. Especially coming from a migrant background myself where my parents worked 60 hours per week in factories. The only difference is that I strongly believe in people obeying the rules and following the laws of a nation. It is a fundamental rule of any civilized society.

Nonetheless, what should be done with illegal immigrants who have broken other laws while being here? Should we give the gang bangers amnesty as well? I can see how hard they have worked. That is, how many American lives they have taken. Federal prisons have a large number of illegal immigrants in them jailed on non immigration related crimes.

Another thing is that the legal immigrants have given this nation far more than illegal immigrants working on farms or in construction. Lets not compare the billions legal immigrants have generated for this nation, in IT, to the thousands generated by illegals working on the farms and in construction.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Fandango 1,439]

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

LisaD .. your words make me miss my friends in the UK ... thanks for the memory

Now back to topic

LOL, I've been trying to be conscious of not using Brit speak cos it's annoys me....been tryin for 2 years now, damnit! didn't even notice that one

But hey, it served a purpose for you, so it's all good

*back to topic*

[Heracles 417]

It does matter. It's not all relative. The money is going into the pockets of the employer....you think the Applebee's with the illegals in the kitchen has cheaper food than other ABs? No, it doesn't. So the cost benefit for those illegals are not being passed to the consumer, therefore it's NOT all relative in this instance.

Conversely, the prices wouldn't rise at that ABs if they hired legal workers.

If a job would normally yield $9/hr but an illegal will do it for $4....then that is not a free market...that is benefitting off slave-type labor. And to sit here and overlook this fact is astounding. 'Oh the American economy will crumble otherwise'....well could that argument be made back in the days of slaves? Hell, let's enslave them then...that'll really get our economy movin...

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

Well said..

[natty bumppo 293]

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

LisaD .. your words make me miss my friends in the UK ... thanks for the memory

Now back to topic

LOL, I've been trying to be conscious of not using Brit speak cos it's annoys me....been tryin for 2 years now, damnit! didn't even notice that one

But hey, it served a purpose for you, so it's all good

*back to topic*

You're Okay

Back to Topic ...

Simply ... illegals need to leave.

There is a labor force available and not being used. Think about the things we did for work as teens and what is now being done by todays teens.

I'll stop here ... just wanted to generate a thought.

[Dan J 277]

Australia doesn't matter, it hasn't grown on a population of illegal immigrants, so it has nothing to loose. The US economy has grown on the work provided by illegal aliens and goods and services bought by them. You take that out, you take a hit.

Personally I do not deny they work hard. I see it all the time and am quite impressed with them. Especially coming from a migrant background myself where my parents worked 60 hours per week in factories. The only difference is that I strongly believe in people obeying the rules and following the laws of a nation. It is a fundamental rule of any civilized society.

Nonetheless, what should be done with illegal immigrants who have broken other laws while being here? Should we give the gang bangers amnesty as well? I can see how hard they have worked. That is, how many American lives they have taken. Federal prisons have a large number of illegal immigrants in them jailed on non immigration related crimes.

Another thing is that the legal immigrants have given this nation far more than illegal immigrants working on farms or in construction. Lets not compare the billions legal immigrants have generated for this nation, in IT, to the thousands generated by illegals working on the farms and in construction.

Citizens commit crimes and are lazy too, thats an unrelated issue.

[Dan J 277]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people.

So, where you don't have the free market, there are no poor people?

If you have the rich, you will have people who are poor. Not everyone can finish a race in first place. (Well you could go to communism, but it doesn't work well for human nature)

[Heracles 417]

Your right, it may increase for low paying workers. But how is it going to grow for skilled workers whose companies see a drop in growth and sales. Hey, we had a 20% drop in sales this quarter, lets give everyone raises and hire on more people. If a CEO did that, they would be hung out to dry by the shareholders.

Most businesses need workers to generate revenue. If the job is there they will need to hire somebody to do it period. The only difference is that with the current situation they can exploit another human being and pay them a few dollars under the table, rather than have to pay more for a legitimate worker.

Not every business is hiring illegals and as such their business seems to be doing quite well. Businesses who are illegally employing people should go bust and loose their customers to the other companies who have followed the rules and laws of this nation.

[GaryC 7]

Dan, I am curious of how you reconcile your progressive views with the undeniable consequences of your pro-illegal stance. You do understand that illegal labor mostly benefits rich people and hurts our own poor don't you? The business's that employ illegals don't pass on the savings to us, they pocket it. And the fact that we have 10-20 million people here willing to work for sub-minimum wages most definitely hurts a USC that is without skills. It sounds like you have bought the rich and big business fear mongering. They are the ones that really reap profits from illegals. Please tell me how you fit that into your values.

[Dan J 277]

Your right, it may increase for low paying workers. But how is it going to grow for skilled workers whose companies see a drop in growth and sales. Hey, we had a 20% drop in sales this quarter, lets give everyone raises and hire on more people. If a CEO did that, they would be hung out to dry by the shareholders.

Most businesses need workers to generate revenue. If the job is there they will need to hire somebody to do it period. The only difference is that with the current situation they can exploit another human being and pay them a few dollars under the table, rather than have to pay more for a legitimate worker.

Not every business is hiring illegals and as such their business seems to be doing quite well. Businesses who are illegally employing people should go bust and loose their customers to the other companies who have followed the rules and laws of this nation.

I know citizens who work under the table because they don't want to pay taxes.

My company doesn't hire illegals, but our customers might. So if they grow, we grow. If they have to pay their workers more, or the sales of their products go down. They may decide to cut our services, and well, we take a hit too.

Sure its great low paying workers may make more. But it means higher costs for the business that hire them. If they cant pass the cost on in their products or services. They will have to cut costs elsewhere or have less money to spend. Both which will contribute to a slowing or recession in the economy.

[GaryC 7]

Your right, it may increase for low paying workers. But how is it going to grow for skilled workers whose companies see a drop in growth and sales. Hey, we had a 20% drop in sales this quarter, lets give everyone raises and hire on more people. If a CEO did that, they would be hung out to dry by the shareholders.

Most businesses need workers to generate revenue. If the job is there they will need to hire somebody to do it period. The only difference is that with the current situation they can exploit another human being and pay them a few dollars under the table, rather than have to pay more for a legitimate worker.

Not every business is hiring illegals and as such their business seems to be doing quite well. Businesses who are illegally employing people should go bust and loose their customers to the other companies who have followed the rules and laws of this nation.

I know citizens who work under the table because they don't want to pay taxes.

My company doesn't hire illegals, but our customers might. So if they grow, we grow. If they have to pay their workers more, or the sales of their products go down. They may decide to cut our services, and well, we take a hit too.

Sure its great low paying workers may make more. But it means higher costs for the business that hire them. If they cant pass the cost on in their products or services. They will have to cut costs elsewhere or have less money to spend. Both which will contribute to a slowing or recession in the economy.

So that means you would get rid of the minimum wage? By your logic it will only help our economy.

[Fandango 1,439]

I know citizens who work under the table because they don't want to pay taxes.

My company doesn't hire illegals, but our customers might. So if they grow, we grow. If they have to pay their workers more, or the sales of their products go down. They may decide to cut our services, and well, we take a hit too.

Sure its great low paying workers may make more. But it means higher costs for the business that hire them. If they cant pass the cost on in their products or services. They will have to cut costs elsewhere or have less money to spend. Both which will contribute to a slowing or recession in the economy.

Well, hell, if following the law will hurt big businesses....

FYI, your stance wouldn't fly for being an advocate of legalizing these workers...only profiting off the backs of exploiting them.

Oh, and 'some Americans break the law too' really isn't a well thought out response...

Edited August 2, 2007 by LisaD

[GaryC 7]

Oh, and 'some Americans break the law too' really isn't a well thought out response...

Anyone that advocates for illegal aliens don't think things out very well. It's a no brainer for most people that take the time to think things out.

[Dan J 277]

Dan, I am curious of how you reconcile your progressive views with the undeniable consequences of your pro-illegal stance. You do understand that illegal labor mostly benefits rich people and hurts our own poor don't you? The business's that employ illegals don't pass on the savings to us, they pocket it. And the fact that we have 10-20 million people here willing to work for sub-minimum wages most definitely hurts a USC that is without skills. It sounds like you have bought the rich and big business fear mongering. They are the ones that really reap profits from illegals. Please tell me how you fit that into your values.

Getting rid of illegal aliens is not going to do much to improve the life of the poor in our country. Thats a separate issue.

Businesses don't put the money under a mattress for a rainy day. They reinvest it and spend it in different parts of the economy. They don't need to pass the saving directly to us in the cost of products for us to benefit. Isn't that why Bush wanted his taxes cuts, so businesses would take the money saved and use it?

I work for a company that doesn't do business with illegal aliens or even hires them. I make enough money where a rise in prices wouldn't affect me much. So I should have nothing to worry about right? Well our customers are small to medium manufacturers, who may sell products to, or may hire illegal immigrations in their companies. If their sales decrease, or they have to pay more for workers, and they cant pass on the costs in the product price. Well then they will have less money to spend. Which could mean, they will decide to stop spending their money with us. Then my company is affected. While we may easily be able to absorb a few customers cutting our services and I would make a bit less with profit sharing. We would be in trouble, if the a significant number of customers cut our services. Which may not happen immediately, but over time, as the ripple effects go through the economy, more customers may drop our services.

Your right, it may increase for low paying workers. But how is it going to grow for skilled workers whose companies see a drop in growth and sales. Hey, we had a 20% drop in sales this quarter, lets give everyone raises and hire on more people. If a CEO did that, they would be hung out to dry by the shareholders.

Most businesses need workers to generate revenue. If the job is there they will need to hire somebody to do it period. The only difference is that with the current situation they can exploit another human being and pay them a few dollars under the table, rather than have to pay more for a legitimate worker.

Not every business is hiring illegals and as such their business seems to be doing quite well. Businesses who are illegally employing people should go bust and loose their customers to the other companies who have followed the rules and laws of this nation.

I know citizens who work under the table because they don't want to pay taxes.

My company doesn't hire illegals, but our customers might. So if they grow, we grow. If they have to pay their workers more, or the sales of their products go down. They may decide to cut our services, and well, we take a hit too.

Sure its great low paying workers may make more. But it means higher costs for the business that hire them. If they cant pass the cost on in their products or services. They will have to cut costs elsewhere or have less money to spend. Both which will contribute to a slowing or recession in the economy.

So that means you would get rid of the minimum wage? By your logic it will only help our economy.

Why not, its an artificial floor anyway. Let the market set the wages. Let the government make up the difference with taxes.