Embracing Illegals

[Heracles 417]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Or the 45,000,000 'American citizens' living in poverty would have a chance to work. No business is going to hire them in the current state when they can get some Mexican to do it for 1/4 of the price..

The average Joe American has to always bend over backwards and suffer for someone else or minority. I mean how stupid of me to suggest that Mexico should be held responsible for its people.

Next we are going to be told to embrace pedophiles as they cannot help themselves.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Fandango 1,439]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

They're only 'integral' so long as their status remains illegal and employers can continue to exploit their cheap labor.

[Dan J 277]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Our economy did fine before they got here, it's doing well despite the enormous drain they represent in free schooling and health care and it will do just fine if they all left tomorrow. That is just some twisted logic that sounds scary to the uninformed to try and sway them to change their minds. It's called fear mongering.

Yeah, but now the economy has grown to take in those people. You cant expect business as usual when you remove 12 million people. Just like most business benefit from economic growth, most businesses also get hurt in a recession. Its not twisted logic, its just the market. If you change the market the market will come back and change you.

The last significant recession due to the dot com bubble. Tech companies were worst effected. But, according to your logic, the rest of the economy should have just been fine. Was it?

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

[GaryC 7]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Our economy did fine before they got here, it's doing well despite the enormous drain they represent in free schooling and health care and it will do just fine if they all left tomorrow. That is just some twisted logic that sounds scary to the uninformed to try and sway them to change their minds. It's called fear mongering.

Yeah, but now the economy has grown to take in those people. You cant expect business as usual when you remove 12 million people. Just like most business benefit from economic growth, most businesses also get hurt in a recession. Its not twisted logic, its just the market. If you change the market the market will come back and change you.

The last significant recession due to the dot com bubble. Tech companies were worst effected. But, according to your logic, the rest of the economy should have just been fine. Was it?

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

It's growth based on illegal activities. I would gladly take any economic hit as a result of making them go. We will survive it just fine. Your logic is kind of like someone saying you can't bust drug dealers because the local economy and families with children depends on it. It is twisted logic and fear mongering.

[Dan J 277]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Or the 45,000,000 'American citizens' living in poverty would have a chance to work. No business is going to hire them in the current state when they can get some Mexican to do it for 1/4 of the price..

The average Joe American has to always bend over backwards and suffer for someone else or minority. I mean how stupid of me to suggest that Mexico should be held responsible for its people.

Next we are going to be told to embrace pedophiles as they cannot help themselves.

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Our economy did fine before they got here, it's doing well despite the enormous drain they represent in free schooling and health care and it will do just fine if they all left tomorrow. That is just some twisted logic that sounds scary to the uninformed to try and sway them to change their minds. It's called fear mongering.

Yeah, but now the economy has grown to take in those people. You cant expect business as usual when you remove 12 million people. Just like most business benefit from economic growth, most businesses also get hurt in a recession. Its not twisted logic, its just the market. If you change the market the market will come back and change you.

The last significant recession due to the dot com bubble. Tech companies were worst effected. But, according to your logic, the rest of the economy should have just been fine. Was it?

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

It's growth based on illegal activities. I would gladly take any economic hit as a result of making them go. We will survive it just fine. Your logic is kind of like someone saying you can't bust drug dealers because the local economy and families with children depends on it. It is twisted logic and fear mongering.

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

[Fandango 1,439]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

Nah, how bout not allowing illegals to reset the price value of a minimum salary for doing those jobs?

[GaryC 7]

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

I will take that chance. I want them to go regardles of any of your unfounded fears.

[Heracles 417]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Or the 45,000,000 'American citizens' living in poverty would have a chance to work. No business is going to hire them in the current state when they can get some Mexican to do it for 1/4 of the price..

The average Joe American has to always bend over backwards and suffer for someone else or minority. I mean how stupid of me to suggest that Mexico should be held responsible for its people.

Next we are going to be told to embrace pedophiles as they cannot help themselves.

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

That is not reality. A lot of business choose the cheap illegal immigrant labor over Americans because they can. That is the free market. It is up to the government to look out for the people and not the profit margin of a business or to win future votes from these people. This can be carried out effectively through the use of high fines as well as jail time for the managers and / or owners of the company who employee them.

[Dan J 277]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

Nah, how bout not allowing illegals to reset the price value of a minimum salary for doing those jobs?

It doesn't matter. Its all relative. If the poorest person was making $100,000 a year they would still be in poverty. There will be a wage floor, either the government will set one, or the market will. But regardless, the market will compensate.

The government could decide to put the minimum wage at 20.00 per hour. While that may be nice for the short term, Stores are going to quickly raise their prices and you will quickly find that the 20.00 and hour wont buy you anymore than what 5.25 did.

[Heracles 417]

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

Baloney. Why is it every other nation who has crack downed on illegal immigrants is not in recession? Australia has an extremely tough stance on illegal immigrants and those who hire them. Hence why they have the highest living standards in the world; as well as the lowest unemployment rate in 33 years.

The answer is simple; Supply and demand. As well as people legitimately paying taxes. Even a truck driver is earning over $95k. Why.. Because they will not allow anyone off somebody else's street to walk in and take his job.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Dan J 277]

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

I will take that chance. I want them to go regardles of any of your unfounded fears.

In the dot com bubble, there were many people that lost their jobs or had a hard time finding work even in industries that had no association with tech companies. But directly, or indirectly their business depended on it.

If all the illegal aliens are deported in a short period of time, you may not see any immediate effect. It could take a year or two, but the company you work for will eventually feel some effects. It could mean, you wont get the raise you were promised, or worse, you or your co-workers get laid off. How much you will be affected and how soon you will feel the effects depends on how closely the company you work for is related to the industries illegal aliens work in.

[Dan J 277]

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

Baloney. Why is it every other nation who has crack downed on illegal immigrants is not in recession? Australia has an extremely tough stance on illegal immigrants and those who hire them. Hence why they have the highest living standards in the world; as well as the lowest unemployment rate in 33 years.

The answer is simple; Supply and demand. As well as people legitimately paying taxes. Even a truck driver is earning over $95k. Why.. Because they will not allow anyone off somebody else's street to walk in and take his job.

Australia doesn't matter, it hasn't grown on a population of illegal immigrants, so it has nothing to loose. The US economy has grown on the work provided by illegal aliens and goods and services bought by them. You take that out, you take a hit.

[GaryC 7]

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

I will take that chance. I want them to go regardles of any of your unfounded fears.

In the dot com bubble, there were many people that lost their jobs or had a hard time finding work even in industries that had no association with tech companies. But directly, or indirectly their business depended on it.

If all the illegal aliens are deported in a short period of time, you may not see any immediate effect. It could take a year or two, but the company you work for will eventually feel some effects. It could mean, you wont get the raise you were promised, or worse, you or your co-workers get laid off. How much you will be affected and how soon you will feel the effects depends on how closely the company you work for is related to the industries illegal aliens work in.

As I said, I will take my chances. I don't believe for a minute that any of your doom and gloom predictions will come true. If fact I think it would be a boom for our economy. Wages will go up for our own low skilled workers, we will not have the huge drain on our federal budget. Things will get better not worse. I just don't buy your fear mongering.

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

[Fandango 1,439]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

Nah, how bout not allowing illegals to reset the price value of a minimum salary for doing those jobs?

It doesn't matter. Its all relative. If the poorest person was making $100,000 a year they would still be in poverty. There will be a wage floor, either the government will set one, or the market will. But regardless, the market will compensate.

The government could decide to put the minimum wage at 20.00 per hour. While that may be nice for the short term, Stores are going to quickly raise their prices and you will quickly find that the 20.00 and hour wont buy you anymore than what 5.25 did.

It does matter. It's not all relative. The money is going into the pockets of the employer....you think the Applebee's with the illegals in the kitchen has cheaper food than other ABs? No, it doesn't. So the cost benefit for those illegals are not being passed to the consumer, therefore it's NOT all relative in this instance.

Conversely, the prices wouldn't rise at that ABs if they hired legal workers.

If a job would normally yield $9/hr but an illegal will do it for $4....then that is not a free market...that is benefitting off slave-type labor. And to sit here and overlook this fact is astounding. 'Oh the American economy will crumble otherwise'....well could that argument be made back in the days of slaves? Hell, let's enslave them then...that'll really get our economy movin...

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

Edited August 2, 2007 by LisaD

[Dan J 277]

Even if it cost you your job? Recession is likely to hit everybody.

I will take that chance. I want them to go regardles of any of your unfounded fears.

In the dot com bubble, there were many people that lost their jobs or had a hard time finding work even in industries that had no association with tech companies. But directly, or indirectly their business depended on it.

If all the illegal aliens are deported in a short period of time, you may not see any immediate effect. It could take a year or two, but the company you work for will eventually feel some effects. It could mean, you wont get the raise you were promised, or worse, you or your co-workers get laid off. How much you will be affected and how soon you will feel the effects depends on how closely the company you work for is related to the industries illegal aliens work in.

As I said, I will take my chances. I don't believe for a minute that any of your doom and gloom predictions will come true. If fact I think it would be a boom for our economy. Wages will go up for our own low skilled workers, we will not have the huge drain on our federal budget. Things will get better not worse. I just don't buy your fear mongering.

Your right, it may increase for low paying workers. But how is it going to grow for skilled workers whose companies see a drop in growth and sales. Hey, we had a 20% drop in sales this quarter, lets give everyone raises and hire on more people. If a CEO did that, they would be hung out to dry by the shareholders.