Embracing Illegals

[Sheriff Uling 3]

I'm of the opinion that quality matters more than quantity. I'd rather have 1,000 PhD's making $200,000 each than 20,000 janitors making $10,000 each.

Preach!!! I completely agree with you...

Edited August 2, 2007 by Sheriff Uling

[Dan J 277]

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Why on God's green earth would you want to do that? You live in the U.S., yet you're

willing to lower your living standards to benefit the poor in some third world country?

In a free market, anyone can be a customer. Not just Americans.

Why should I lower my living standards to accommodate a bunch of foreigners?

What does their "being a customer" buy me?

I think thats simply answered with, what does a free market get you that other markets don't. Same market, bigger scale.

I'm of the opinion that quality matters more than quantity. I'd rather have 1,000 PhD's

making $200,000 each than 20,000 janitors making $10,000 each.

I agree, its sometimes worth paying a person more if they are more productive or have more experience or knowledge.

There was a lot of outsourcing in my industry to India or where ever, and there will continue to be to an extent. But that hasn't stopped companies in the US from hiring developers. And there is still quite a bit of demand in the IT and CS fields. If your a good developer, you keep on top of the game, learn new technologies, you will continue to be in demand by companies and will likely not have much trouble finding work. If your crappy, well maybe your in the wrong industry.

Improve yourself, don't expect the government to limit competition and get you a job. Even in low skilled jobs, make it worth it for companies to pay more for you. You can still compete even if you can't compete on wage.

[Cry_Tuff 0]

The only problem I have is all the amount of time and money we that are doing things LEGALLY are spending to ensure our SO's stay with us isn't ruinied by the INS. Also, if a person has come to this country illegally, they are permitted to get on welfare assistance, seek free medical help, and get food stamps .....(not saying all do, but they are allowed to...and make more than some USC's make...when many American families do not even qualify for assistance because "they make too much" living paycheck to paycheck....)...(which raises an eyebrow with...why the need for a sponsor/cosponsor then)

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

You're still not understanding what a net cost means. Let me spell it out for you: When you take all the benefits and all the burden this country gets from the illegals and you add it all up, we're roughly 10 billion dollars in the hole each year. I'd love to see how we're doing without that net burden. Common sense tells me that we'd be better off.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

Nah, how bout not allowing illegals to reset the price value of a minimum salary for doing those jobs?

It doesn't matter. Its all relative. If the poorest person was making $100,000 a year they would still be in poverty. There will be a wage floor, either the government will set one, or the market will. But regardless, the market will compensate.

The government could decide to put the minimum wage at 20.00 per hour. While that may be nice for the short term, Stores are going to quickly raise their prices and you will quickly find that the 20.00 and hour wont buy you anymore than what 5.25 did.

It does matter. It's not all relative. The money is going into the pockets of the employer....you think the Applebee's with the illegals in the kitchen has cheaper food than other ABs? No, it doesn't. So the cost benefit for those illegals are not being passed to the consumer, therefore it's NOT all relative in this instance.

Conversely, the prices wouldn't rise at that ABs if they hired legal workers.

If a job would normally yield $9/hr but an illegal will do it for $4....then that is not a free market...that is benefitting off slave-type labor. And to sit here and overlook this fact is astounding. 'Oh the American economy will crumble otherwise'....well could that argument be made back in the days of slaves? Hell, let's enslave them then...that'll really get our economy movin...

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

:applause:

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

A free market doesn't see a persons immigration status. Thats a limitation imposed by the government. So to the free market, illegal aliens are just like any other worker.

This is the most ridiculous statement yet. This statement would only have value if you were suggesting that your free market exists in some vacuum. But we have laws that we have set and the free market (it's all relative, remember?) operates within that framework. Besides, if the illegal alien was just like any other worker as you would have us believe, then the illegal alien would be paid and treated just like any other worker. If they were paid and treated just like any other worker, no employer would hire them.

[homesick_american 1]

to your edit: yes i feel there is a very good chance that there are illegal workers in a place of business when noone speaks...not prefer not to speak but can't speak english. whats wrong w/ that?

But again, how do you know if they can or can't speak english... you don't go to the back and actually converse with the kitchen staff, do you.. that's why everyone was getting so mad..

you don't know..

and like Bootylicious said.. her husband who is a legal resident doesn't speak english if he's surrounded by spanish speakers... he's more comfortable with the language too ..

therefore, he can, he just chooses not to speak english.. and you wouldn't know that by just walking by him.

Here's the elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring. If memory serves, Bootylicious's husband used to be an illegal immigrant and only got to legalize by marrying Bootylicious. So....smoke20 isn't THAT far off.

[homesick_american 1]

Welcome to the free market, where you will always have poor people. Just because they are in poverty doesn't mean they are jobless. And if more Americans took the jobs illegals are doing, they would likely still be in poverty. Those jobs don't pay much.

There are two solutions to this, much more equal wage distribution ( AKA very high progressive taxes), or more government services to meet the needs of the poor.

Nah, how bout not allowing illegals to reset the price value of a minimum salary for doing those jobs?

It doesn't matter. Its all relative. If the poorest person was making $100,000 a year they would still be in poverty. There will be a wage floor, either the government will set one, or the market will. But regardless, the market will compensate.

The government could decide to put the minimum wage at 20.00 per hour. While that may be nice for the short term, Stores are going to quickly raise their prices and you will quickly find that the 20.00 and hour wont buy you anymore than what 5.25 did.

It does matter. It's not all relative. The money is going into the pockets of the employer....you think the Applebee's with the illegals in the kitchen has cheaper food than other ABs? No, it doesn't. So the cost benefit for those illegals are not being passed to the consumer, therefore it's NOT all relative in this instance.

Conversely, the prices wouldn't rise at that ABs if they hired legal workers.

If a job would normally yield $9/hr but an illegal will do it for $4....then that is not a free market...that is benefitting off slave-type labor. And to sit here and overlook this fact is astounding. 'Oh the American economy will crumble otherwise'....well could that argument be made back in the days of slaves? Hell, let's enslave them then...that'll really get our economy movin...

Illegals cannot be praised as an integral part of our workforce because they are not part of the legitimate workforce...they are a subclass of workers that are being exploited whilst at the same time killing jobs off for Americans.

Well said.

[Ban Hammer 13,083]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

When I was a kid I earned my money picking apples, de-tasseling corn and putting up hay. In the winter I worked in a restaurant flipping hamburgers. If Dan had his way I wouldn't have had that opportunity, some illegal would be doing it. Thanks man, your such a pal.

ditto. when i was 14-16, i was mowing yards, shoveling dirt, all manual labor stuff. nowadays i'd not been able to make any money either.

[Ban Hammer 13,083]

When business are growing, they pay more in corporate income taxes and property taxes. So while illegal aliens may have increased costs on services, tax collections also increased due to economic growth. So in effect, business that are growing due to illegal aliens are paying the costs in services. Unless of course you start cutting taxes and messing everything up.

You're still not understanding what a net cost means. Let me spell it out for you: When you take all the benefits and all the burden this country gets from the illegals and you add it all up, we're roughly 10 billion dollars in the hole each year. I'd love to see how we're doing without that net burden. Common sense tells me that we'd be better off.

unfortunately, it seems common sense isn't as common as it used to be when the topic of illegals surfaces.

Here's the elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring. If memory serves, Bootylicious's husband used to be an illegal immigrant and only got to legalize by marrying Bootylicious. So....smoke20 isn't THAT far off.

memory serves correctly. and not ignoring, just waiting to see if anyone else remembered that.

[homesick_american 1]

They have done that, just a poor job of enforcing it. Now they are a part of the free market. Removing them is not without consequences.

And when are THEY going to face the consequences for their illegal actions?

[Heracles 417]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

That is a great point as well. Teens in America now have no chance of competing with illegal immigrants for low skilled jobs to earn a few bucks for things like college or a car or simply a bit of extra pocket money. The only people who are benefiting from exploiting illegal immigrants are small and medium businesses. I hope they do go bust and / or are fined.

[homesick_american 1]

I would hate to be a teen ... or early 20 something trying to make money for college or trying to get ahead while competing against illegals. Given todays market ... I would have had a very hard time paying for college as a USC. My parents couldn't afford ... it was all me. Yes , I did jobs that today ... illegals would have prevented me from having.

What chance do others that are like me, have today?

My thought ... send these illegals home and let the "enabled .. enlightened children" learn what it takes to survive.

That is a great point as well. Teens in America now have no chance of competing with illegal immigrants for low skilled jobs to earn a few bucks for things like college or a car or simply a bit of extra pocket money. The only people who are benefiting from exploiting illegal immigrants are small and medium businesses. I hope they do go bust and / or are fined.

Teens in America need the opportunity to work a thankless job, definitely. I worked at a cafe when I was in high school and I worked at one of those one hour photo processing places in college and those experiences motivated me to finish my education.

[smoke20 0]

Here's the elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring. If memory serves, Bootylicious's husband used to be an illegal immigrant and only got to legalize by marrying Bootylicious. So....smoke20 isn't THAT far off.

memory serves correctly. and not ignoring, just waiting to see if anyone else remembered that.

and just where the hell were you two yesterday?

[homesick_american 1]

Here's the elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring. If memory serves, Bootylicious's husband used to be an illegal immigrant and only got to legalize by marrying Bootylicious. So....smoke20 isn't THAT far off.

memory serves correctly. and not ignoring, just waiting to see if anyone else remembered that.

and just where the hell were you two yesterday?

LOL...sorry smoke20.