Editor fired after publication of Islam cartoons

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I think what was interesting with the Danish case, is its actually having an affect on their immigration policy -- you are now not allowed to petition a non-Dane for immigration if you or the beneficiary are under 24, which is one way to keep young Muslim males out.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Piss Christ was actually an Andres Serrano piece, although Mapplethorpe gets blamed for it all the time.

I wouldn't consider either of their works as "art". This is just my opinion. But I don't want them stopped or killed because I disagree.

I think what was interesting with the Danish case, is its actually having an affect on their immigration policy -- you are now not allowed to petition a non-Dane for immigration if you or the beneficiary are under 24, which is one way to keep young Muslim males out.

That would keep anyone 'young' out. Not just Muslim males. Young Canadian females would be excluded too.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

That's true too -- but I don't think that's who the "tolerant" countries of Northern Europe are trying to exclude

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

That's true too -- but I don't think that's who the "tolerant" countries of Northern Europe are trying to exclude

If they wanted to exclude them exclusively, couldn't they have just made a list of countries and said no one under 24 from these countries allowed?

Nations all over the world make lists of other countries and differentiate between them in terms of visa policy all the time. It wouldn't be unprecedented.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Palestinian gunmen shut down the European Union's office Thursday in Gaza City, Palestinian security sources said, demanding an apology in a row over European newspapers running cartoons featuring the prophet Mohammad.

The gunmen left a notice on the EU office's door that the building would remain closed until Europeans apologize to Muslims, many of whom consider the cartoons offensive.

Mask-wearing members of the militant group Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the armed wing of former Palestinian ruling party Fatah, fired bullets into the air, and a man read the group's demands.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/02/gaza.cartoon/

Well, as a European, I'd have to say that Europe cannot apologize to that kind of a radical mob. After all, the reaction and behavior displayed by the lot of them is quite offensive to us as well.

I think what was interesting with the Danish case, is its actually having an affect on their immigration policy -- you are now not allowed to petition a non-Dane for immigration if you or the beneficiary are under 24, which is one way to keep young Muslim males out.

Do you actually believe what you just typed?

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Why? Do you think that I believe it is right, or do you think I might just be pointing the underlying reasons for this policy?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Well, I think it should be pointed out that in the case of the Jewish religion, it's the Holocaust that is considered "sacred," rather than its holidays or prominent figures. Any questioning of or attempt to do objective studies of the Holocaust is a jailable offense in most European countries. (What about that much-lauded "freedom of speech," ET ? )

It seems that Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism are the only major world religions that can be mocked or insulted without much danger of reprisal.

Haha. Just the Holocaust is sacred in Judaism? I guess all that stuff about Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is just the acts of a bunch of irreligious heathens? Give me a break. Fact is, Jews and Jewish holidays and customs (South Park.. Cartman: Shut up, ya damn Jew!) are insulted in the media all the time. And you know what? Jews, in general, appear to have a sense of humor about it.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am saying that you CAN joke/question/deny just about anything involving the Jewish people, and it is tolerated...EXCEPT the Holocaust. This is what I meant by "It is the Holocaust which is considered sacred."

Each religion has its "sacred cows" (no insult intended to our Hindu members.) The sacred cows of Islam are Muhammad and the Qur'an. The sacred cow of Judaism is the Holocaust.

When these "sacred cows" are "insulted," reactions vary between different groups. Some may ignore it, some may protest, some may turn litigious, some may boycott or recall ambassadors.

NOTE: I am certainly NOT condoning any illegal behavior such as (but not limited to) assault, kidnapping, or murder. But lawful responses are the right of anyone, no matter who may think they are "overreacting." (Of course, those who think it is an overreaction have the right to their opinions, too.)

This thread has a lot of posts to which I intend to respond, but I will have to do them one by one as my time permits.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I am certainly NOT condoning any illegal behavior such as (but not limited to) assault, kidnapping, or murder. But lawful responses are the right of anyone, no matter who may think they are "overreacting." (Of course, those who think it is an overreaction have the right to their opinions, too.)

Can't say I disagree with you on that count.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Why? Do you think that I believe it is right, or do you think I might just be pointing the underlying reasons for this policy?

No, I mean do you believe that the minimum age is indeed intended to target young muslim males only? Where did you get that? It bars anyone younger than 24, doesn't it?

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I've been following this for some time, and yes, although it discriminates against EVERYONE under 24, it was enacted to a growing anti-muslim sentiment in Europe. From a September 2004 article in the New York Times:

The Danish case may have produced an unusual result, but it reflects a broad unease in many countries in Europe about the increase in non-European, often Muslim, populations, a phenomenon that had led to the growth of several rightist anti-immigrant parties -- among them the Danish People's Party, which won 22 seats in the 179-member Danish Parliament in the elections in 2001. But only relatively tiny Denmark, with about 450,000 foreign-born residents in a population of 5.3 million, has actually enacted regulations that have essentially forced some of its citizens to choose between their loved ones and their country.

Mr. Vesselbo himself did research showing that even in the third generation, 98 percent of Turks living in Denmark married husbands or wives from Turkey.

''And most of them were forced or arranged marriages,'' Mr. Vesselbo said.

That finding and others like it led Parliament to pass a law that, among other requirements, set a minimum age of 24 for both a husband and a wife before they would be allowed to live as a couple in Denmark. The reasoning was that 24-year-olds would be better able to resist parental pressure to marry inside the group than would 18- or 19-year-olds, even while giving them a chance for more education. Among the problems the new law created, however, was that it swept nonimmigrant Danes like Signe Nielsen, who was 22 when she married Mr. Lescaille, who is Cuban, into its net.

[Careless 0]

*rolling eyes* Attack Jesus or mock Hindu images or make up a song making light of Jewish holidays and Moses.... and you're A-ok. Mock Mohd. and OMFG the world comes to an end.

Well, I think it should be pointed out that in the case of the Jewish religion, it's the Holocaust that is considered "sacred," rather than its holidays or prominent figures. Any questioning of or attempt to do objective studies of the Holocaust is a jailable offense in most European countries. (What about that much-lauded "freedom of speech," ET ? )

Sorry but that comparison simply doesn't work... And objective studies of the holocaust is not a jailable offense as far as I know. Ignorantly denying it's occurance is - and well should be. The millions that fell victim to that atrocity are owed no less.

whoa? first off - to stay on topic - if someone MOCKED the holocaust - it wouldn't go down well.

secondly - the same principle that you are hiding behind when it comes to mocking mohammed, god - which is freedom of speech - should apply to someone who denies the holocaust - why should denial of the holocaust be a jailable offense? does that not infringe upon one's rights to free speech?

double standard there, no?

Keep trying to compare making fun of a tragic event to making fun of a religious figure. You'll never make a valid point doing it, I'm afraid. Now, a valid point would be something like "when south park had moses as the villain from "tron" [i think this they did this], jews ran around threatening to kill the staff of comedy central"

If that had happened.

you don't believe history supports prophets - well does history support moses? if you don't believe moses is fact, that in and of itself negates the entire jewish existence......making the holocaust a moot point.

No, I don't believe history supports religion of any kind. But that's neither here nor there.

As for how that affects the Holocaust, it does not. Because Hitler's tactics could just as easily have applied to any other social grouping. In point of fact, it did. He did not target Jews only, but homosexuals and gypsies as well. Whether Judaism is a valid system of belief is not the point at all. Genocide is the point.

Piss Christ was actually an Andres Serrano piece, although Mapplethorpe gets blamed for it all the time.

Poor guy.

your going way off topic here - first and foremost - if you think history supports any religion of any kind - then you have negated the entire existence of the jewish population - and it is this very population that would scream and shout if newspapers across europe printed cartoons mocking the holocaust - it wouldn't be the homosexual or gypsy populations that would scream and shout.

.....someone mentioned that the prophet mohammed and the holocaust are two entirely different things. agreed. what needs to be understood here is that there is a group of people that hold the prophet in high esteem. as there is a group of people that hold dearly to them the holocaust - mocking either will raise the angers of these groups. that is the point - it is the fact that there are people who hold certain things in high regard, and mocking that very thing (regarldess of what it is, of whether it's real or fictional) will draw negative sentiments.

we live in a multicultural and global world - if we want to live together, we need to learn to be sensitive of the beliefs, cultures, and values of eachother on a global scale.

Ok, the first part (jews don't exist? huh?) is simply nonsensical. The second part can be responded to like this: suppose for a moment that your mother had been brutally beaten to death by a bunch of thugs. Now, I decide to harass you. If I A) mock your mother's style of dress and B) talk trash about your mother's murder, which do you think will (and should) anger you more?

Oh, and shame on CNN for going the cowardly way and saying they won't print the cartoons.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Careless

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Oh, and shame on CNN for going the cowardly way and saying they won't print the cartoons.

That might not be such a bad thing. Overseas, many see CNN as synonymous with the US as a whole. With our current engagements in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, I really don't think our troops need that right now. JMHO, of course.

suppose for a moment that your mother had been brutally beaten to death by a bunch of thugs. Now, I decide to harass you. If I A) mock your mother's style of dress and B) talk trash about your mother's murder, which do you think will (and should) anger you more?

Most people don't elevate their moms into the head of a cult-like belief system and give her demigod like status.

[junglee069 0]

*rolling eyes* Attack Jesus or mock Hindu images or make up a song making light of Jewish holidays and Moses.... and you're A-ok. Mock Mohd. and OMFG the world comes to an end.

Well, I think it should be pointed out that in the case of the Jewish religion, it's the Holocaust that is considered "sacred," rather than its holidays or prominent figures. Any questioning of or attempt to do objective studies of the Holocaust is a jailable offense in most European countries. (What about that much-lauded "freedom of speech," ET ? )

Sorry but that comparison simply doesn't work... And objective studies of the holocaust is not a jailable offense as far as I know. Ignorantly denying it's occurance is - and well should be. The millions that fell victim to that atrocity are owed no less.

whoa? first off - to stay on topic - if someone MOCKED the holocaust - it wouldn't go down well.

secondly - the same principle that you are hiding behind when it comes to mocking mohammed, god - which is freedom of speech - should apply to someone who denies the holocaust - why should denial of the holocaust be a jailable offense? does that not infringe upon one's rights to free speech?

double standard there, no?

Keep trying to compare making fun of a tragic event to making fun of a religious figure. You'll never make a valid point doing it, I'm afraid. Now, a valid point would be something like "when south park had moses as the villain from "tron" [i think this they did this], jews ran around threatening to kill the staff of comedy central"

If that had happened.

you don't believe history supports prophets - well does history support moses? if you don't believe moses is fact, that in and of itself negates the entire jewish existence......making the holocaust a moot point.

No, I don't believe history supports religion of any kind. But that's neither here nor there.

As for how that affects the Holocaust, it does not. Because Hitler's tactics could just as easily have applied to any other social grouping. In point of fact, it did. He did not target Jews only, but homosexuals and gypsies as well. Whether Judaism is a valid system of belief is not the point at all. Genocide is the point.

Piss Christ was actually an Andres Serrano piece, although Mapplethorpe gets blamed for it all the time.

Poor guy.

your going way off topic here - first and foremost - if you think history supports any religion of any kind - then you have negated the entire existence of the jewish population - and it is this very population that would scream and shout if newspapers across europe printed cartoons mocking the holocaust - it wouldn't be the homosexual or gypsy populations that would scream and shout.

.....someone mentioned that the prophet mohammed and the holocaust are two entirely different things. agreed. what needs to be understood here is that there is a group of people that hold the prophet in high esteem. as there is a group of people that hold dearly to them the holocaust - mocking either will raise the angers of these groups. that is the point - it is the fact that there are people who hold certain things in high regard, and mocking that very thing (regarldess of what it is, of whether it's real or fictional) will draw negative sentiments.

we live in a multicultural and global world - if we want to live together, we need to learn to be sensitive of the beliefs, cultures, and values of eachother on a global scale.

Ok, the first part (jews don't exist? huh?) is simply nonsensical. The second part can be responded to like this: suppose for a moment that your mother had been brutally beaten to death by a bunch of thugs. Now, I decide to harass you. If I A) mock your mother's style of dress and B) talk trash about your mother's murder, which do you think will (and should) anger you more?

Oh, and shame on CNN for going the cowardly way and saying they won't print the cartoons.

.........once again - u have missed my point entirely - it's not a matter of WHAT the holocaust was - it's a matter of holding it dear, and the importance is has to the people. similarly - the religious figure is important to its particular people - and depicting it by drawing cartoons of it is pushing their buttons. it isn't the fact that the cartoonist was being humurous at their expense - for all that it matters, it could have been a history book with a picture of mohammed being printed - this is something the islamic faith holds dear to themselves - for 1400 years they have abided by a policy of NOT drawing pictures of mohammed - to have someone else do it is somewhat offensive - simply because they hold this as sacred.

look - this is simply a lesson in multi-culturalism - no one is denying anothers freedom of speech - there are somethings that just aren't said or done.

i will repeat - i don't condone the reaction by some of the more fanatical elements - however, many have taken a more civil approach.......

[lostinlove228 0]

Your right, it's not the same thing. Mocking the Prophet Mohamed is a great offense. Just as you say you have the freedom of speech to print whatever picture you want. We have the right to become Irate about it and cause a big proble. Call ambassadors and all. lawsuits, and calling the people who such a thing evil.

I don't think anyone is saying th Holycost did not happen. But the something should have been learned by that. Do do to people what was done to you. When you do that then you get no respect for that tragity.

whoa? first off - to stay on topic - if someone MOCKED the holocaust - it wouldn't go down well.

secondly - the same principle that you are hiding behind when it comes to mocking mohammed, god - which is freedom of speech - should apply to someone who denies the holocaust - why should denial of the holocaust be a jailable offense? does that not infringe upon one's rights to free speech?

double standard there, no?

1. Mocking the Holocaust

2. mocking Mohammed

They aren't even in the same ballpark.

However "The Producers" play was just done in Israel. A play with swastikas and the song "S pringtime for Hitler". No big outrage at all. That's tolerance.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainmen...ent_theater-hed

[Nizzy 1]

Out of curiousity I looked at the cartoons in question, and IMHO they're not very well drawn and they're pretty heavy handed. Kind of like a Cox & Forkum cartoon, you know, worthless.

Is this the cartoon in question?