fully prepared to be flamed,

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Keltic, I don't see how it will affect anyone else. It will give a bunch of Mexicans work visas. That's not going to hurt anyone's process or anyone's personal life.

now, that is true.. again, i dont see a direct relationship between giving h1b visas to some dudes and the family visa procedures

Tell me who will process the papers for the 5-10 million cases that this proposed amnesty would create overnight.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

and again, none of this addresses the fact that the source of the problem needs to be fixed... otherwise, there will just be more and more illegals produced... just how many illegal immigrants can this country take? and just how much exploitation here will they be willing to take in the long run?

seriously, its is not a lack of understanding... i just dont see running away from a problem as a solution... if there is a bleed in a body... you can keep pumping blood into it endlessly, but you wont fix it unless you find the source of the bleeding and repair it... likewise, until the source of the problem (corrupt, uncaring govts in other nations) is fixed, the side effects will just continue and get worse... that means not just illegals, but the crime there, the poverty there... running away from it to another country will not CHANGE the conditions of their original country... should we try to fit all the ppl of the earth here within our borders to try to make their lives easier?

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see Americans try to rush the border so they can have a better life in Mexico (what with so many manufacturing jobs going south). I'd like CNN to use all the technology at their disposal to capture everything that happens to them during their attempts and I want them to broadcast it.

That will change the debate radically.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

This is a really good article from yesterday's New York Times on the effect illegal immigration (and in all likelihood an amnesty or guest worker program) is having on the wages of Americans:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/weekinre...r=1&oref=slogin

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

This is a really good article from yesterday's New York Times on the effect illegal immigration (and in all likelihood an amnesty or guest worker program) is having on the wages of Americans:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/weekinre...r=1&oref=slogin

Good post, robinlake. Here is a good excerpt from the article:

While it might be a challenge to find an American-born cab driver in New York or parking lot attendant in Phoenix or grape cutter in the San Joaquin Valley of California, according to Mr. Camarota's study of census data from 2000-2005, 59 percent of cab drivers in the United States are native born, as are 66 percent of all valet parkers. Half of all workers in agriculture were born in this country.

"The idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is economic gibberish," Mr. Camarota said. "All the big occupations that immigrants are in — construction, janitorial, even agriculture — are overwhelmingly done by native Americans."

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

anarchy anyone??

There are people who would say anarchy is the perfect form of government.

Those "people" should travel to Somalia for awhile for the real life experience.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

Keltic, I don't see how it will affect anyone else. It will give a bunch of Mexicans work visas. That's not going to hurt anyone's process or anyone's personal life.

now, that is true.. again, i dont see a direct relationship between giving h1b visas to some dudes and the family visa procedures

Tell me who will process the papers for the 5-10 million cases that this proposed amnesty would create overnight.

There is no proposed amnesty. That's what the hardliners call the Specter-bill without looking at its specifics:

Link

It would be bad if converting illegals into Permanent residents would take away resources from other forms of immigration, but that is also not the plan of any bill...

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Also this:

But George J. Borjas, a professor of economics and social policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, said he believed that the flow of migrants had significantly depressed wages for Americans in virtually all job categories and income levels. His study found that the average annual wage loss for all American male workers from 1980 to 2000 was $1,200, or 4 percent, and nearly twice that, in percentage terms, for those without a high school diploma. The impact was also disproportionately high on African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, Professor Borjas found.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

anarchy anyone??

There are people who would say anarchy is the perfect form of government.

Those "people" should travel to Somalia for awhile for the real life experience.

A colleague of mine many years ago, a die-hard libertarian, once told me that Somalia was the perfect libertarian paradise on earth. He subscribed to an email newsletter on libertarian issues that said so.

It would be bad if converting illegals into Permanent residents would take away resources from other forms of immigration, but that is also not the plan of any bill...

Yeah, it's not the plan but it probably will be an unintended consequence. Does the bill pay for more trained adjudicators and more adjudication centers?

[MaryandMian 1]

Keltic, I don't see how it will affect anyone else. It will give a bunch of Mexicans work visas. That's not going to hurt anyone's process or anyone's personal life.

now, that is true.. again, i dont see a direct relationship between giving h1b visas to some dudes and the family visa procedures

Tell me who will process the papers for the 5-10 million cases that this proposed amnesty would create overnight.

I agree. I have paid the fees, I am separated from my husband who has a clean record. And yet all these other cases will go into the system and I am in AR hell now and it will deter my case being processed. How many of these amensty cases have police records that will come and be forgiven and where does that leave me? I think bettering one self is fine. But you cannot open up the flood gates when you have others in the system doing it the proper way. And once you allow them it will not stop the flow and it will continue to be an ongoing problem.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

"The idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is economic gibberish," Mr. Camarota said. "All the big occupations that immigrants are in — construction, janitorial, even agriculture — are overwhelmingly done by native Americans."

That's what I've been saying all along. The profiteers have planted this "wisdom" quite successfully, though.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

and again, none of this addresses the fact that the source of the problem needs to be fixed... otherwise, there will just be more and more illegals produced... just how many illegal immigrants can this country take? and just how much exploitation here will they be willing to take in the long run?

seriously, its is not a lack of understanding... i just dont see running away from a problem as a solution... if there is a bleed in a body... you can keep pumping blood into it endlessly, but you wont fix it unless you find the source of the bleeding and repair it... likewise, until the source of the problem (corrupt, uncaring govts in other nations) is fixed, the side effects will just continue and get worse... that means not just illegals, but the crime there, the poverty there... running away from it to another country will not CHANGE the conditions of their original country... should we try to fit all the ppl of the earth here within our borders to try to make their lives easier?

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see Americans try to rush the border so they can have a better life in Mexico (what with so many manufacturing jobs going south). I'd like CNN to use all the technology at their disposal to capture everything that happens to them during their attempts and I want them to broadcast it.

That will change the debate radically.

I'd like to see American workers standing up for wages that they could live on and ideally for those wages and necessary benefits to become mandated. If American employers had to pay enough money to an American worker to feed his/her family, the issue of illegal labor would go away automatically.

And it would create conditions for people to come here legally and make a decent living. That's the way it used to be in this country before the Republicans struck back (beginning in 1980).

Illegal immigration is not the solution to the nation's problems (unless you're employing them); blaming illegals for the nation's problems is not the solution either. Man, these people at least are still willing to fight for something, maybe we should start learning from them...

anarchy anyone??

There are people who would say anarchy is the perfect form of government.

Those "people" should travel to Somalia for awhile for the real life experience.

A colleague of mine many years ago, a die-hard libertarian, once told me that Somalia was the perfect libertarian paradise on earth. He subscribed to an email newsletter on libertarian issues that said so.

It would be bad if converting illegals into Permanent residents would take away resources from other forms of immigration, but that is also not the plan of any bill...

Yeah, it's not the plan but it probably will be an unintended consequence. Does the bill pay for more trained adjudicators and more adjudication centers?

Does the house bill provide for money to deport people? No, it hopes to tap into local police resources and USCIS-resources. The Specter-bill at least increases funding to USCIS.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Keltic, I don't see how it will affect anyone else. It will give a bunch of Mexicans work visas. That's not going to hurt anyone's process or anyone's personal life.

now, that is true.. again, i dont see a direct relationship between giving h1b visas to some dudes and the family visa procedures

Tell me who will process the papers for the 5-10 million cases that this proposed amnesty would create overnight.

There is no proposed amnesty. That's what the hardliners call the Specter-bill without looking at its specifics:Link

It would be bad if converting illegals into Permanent residents would take away resources from other forms of immigration, but that is also not the plan of any bill...

Hmmm: From your article: "It would force them not into buses or jails but into line, where they could become lawful residents and — if they showed they deserved it — citizens."

So, they are today inelgible to become Residents or Citizens w/o leaving the country and pursuing legals paths (including remaining out for 10 years). The Senate bill would leave them here and grant them the right to get in line (there's your longer wait times down the road 'cause those are the same lines everyone else is standing in; and if you believe that there will be sufficient addt'l resources for this addt'l workload, tell me when that happened the last time) for residency and citizenship. So, they are forgiven their past illegal activity. Just how is that not an amnesty? And please spare me the $2K fee. That's lipstick on a pig.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

anarchy anyone??

There are people who would say anarchy is the perfect form of government.

Those "people" should travel to Somalia for awhile for the real life experience.

A colleague of mine many years ago, a die-hard libertarian, once told me that Somalia was the perfect libertarian paradise on earth. He subscribed to an email newsletter on libertarian issues that said so.

Of course, he (and all the other libertarians) only talk a tough game and don't actually happen to move into this libertarian paradise, correct?

[babybunny 2]

I am wondering someting. if anyone knows this.

what are the numbers as far as how many people are waiting for Visas to enter the USA. Family based and also those waiting on Waivers.

it seems easier grant those people visas now.

I like Fischkoepfin Response:

I'd like to see American workers standing up for wages that they could live on and ideally for those wages and necessary benefits to become mandated. If American employers had to pay enough money to an American worker to feed his/her family, the issue of illegal labor would go away automatically.

however, goes to back to this how much would you like to get paid to clean toilets.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

Keltic, I don't see how it will affect anyone else. It will give a bunch of Mexicans work visas. That's not going to hurt anyone's process or anyone's personal life.

now, that is true.. again, i dont see a direct relationship between giving h1b visas to some dudes and the family visa procedures

Tell me who will process the papers for the 5-10 million cases that this proposed amnesty would create overnight.

There is no proposed amnesty. That's what the hardliners call the Specter-bill without looking at its specifics:Link

It would be bad if converting illegals into Permanent residents would take away resources from other forms of immigration, but that is also not the plan of any bill...

Hmmm: From your article: "It would force them not into buses or jails but into line, where they could become lawful residents and — if they showed they deserved it — citizens."

So, they are today inelgible to become Residents or Citizens w/o leaving the country and pursuing legals paths (including remaining out for 10 years). The Senate bill would leave them here and grant them the right to get in line (there's your longer wait times down the road 'cause those are the same lines everyone else is standing in; and if you believe that there will be sufficient addt'l resources for this addt'l workload, tell me when that happened the last time) for residency and citizenship. So, they are forgiven their past illegal activity. Just how is that not an amnesty? And please spare me the $2K fee. That's lipstick on a pig.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Yeah, I know, but I honestly don't believe there will be money for either solution (having people adjust in a few year vs. deporting them today).

Amnesty, though, is what happened last time. In 1996 (and several times before that) illegals were forgiven on the spot. No strings attached. This time, there's at least talk of a fine, and then 12 years to citizenship instead of 5. That's not really a reward, is it?

It all ends up to be another rhetorical mud slinging contest. Then, they'll add three phrases to current legislation, one granting full amnesty, one mandating the building of a wall, and one claiming to provide funding (which will be vetoed by POTUS), and all will be worse then before.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Keltic, I don't see how it will affect anyone else. It will give a bunch of Mexicans work visas. That's not going to hurt anyone's process or anyone's personal life.

now, that is true.. again, i dont see a direct relationship between giving h1b visas to some dudes and the family visa procedures

Tell me who will process the papers for the 5-10 million cases that this proposed amnesty would create overnight.

There is no proposed amnesty. That's what the hardliners call the Specter-bill without looking at its specifics:Link

It would be bad if converting illegals into Permanent residents would take away resources from other forms of immigration, but that is also not the plan of any bill...

Hmmm: From your article: "It would force them not into buses or jails but into line, where they could become lawful residents and — if they showed they deserved it — citizens."

So, they are today inelgible to become Residents or Citizens w/o leaving the country and pursuing legals paths (including remaining out for 10 years). The Senate bill would leave them here and grant them the right to get in line (there's your longer wait times down the road 'cause those are the same lines everyone else is standing in; and if you believe that there will be sufficient addt'l resources for this addt'l workload, tell me when that happened the last time) for residency and citizenship. So, they are forgiven their past illegal activity. Just how is that not an amnesty? And please spare me the $2K fee. That's lipstick on a pig.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Yeah, I know, but I honestly don't believe there will be money for either solution (having people adjust in a few year vs. deporting them today).

Amnesty, though, is what happened last time. In 1996 (and several times before that) illegals were forgiven on the spot. No strings attached. This time, there's at least talk of a fine, and then 12 years to citizenship instead of 5. That's not really a reward, is it?

It all ends up to be another rhetorical mud slinging contest. Then, they'll add three phrases to current legislation, one granting full amnesty, one mandating the building of a wall, and one claiming to provide funding (which will be vetoed by POTUS), and all will be worse then before.

If there's no amnesty (and I'll continue to call it what it amounts to regardless of some trying to dress it up as something else), there's no additional paperwork to be handled by USCIS. Yes, ICE might get busier but that doesn't have any bearing on those standing in line legally today and those that are looking to get into line legally tomorrow.

There was a $1K fee (officially: penalty) for those that benefitted from the limited amnesty under the LIFE Act of 2000. So, that's not really anything new. Take a look at the I-485-Supplement A.

Lastly, for consistency's sake, compare the 12 years to citizenship with the current 10 year ban on re-entry, let alone residency or citizenship. You may then compare 12 years to citizenship with currently at least 17 years (and that's a very optimistic point of view) to accomplish that. Makes 12 years a reward, no?