Attitude in replies

[TBoneTX 45,595]

35 minutes ago, TempunAlex said:

to make it clear they are being stern and bullying

Perhaps, but also perhaps not.  Context is important.

Again, the crucial step is to report anything that seems to violate the Terms of Service.

Edited July 23, 2023 by TBoneTX

[Crazy Cat 41,984]

8 hours ago, TempunAlex said:

Some even love to bold certain sections of their replies to make it clear they are being stern and bullying.

Speaking for myself, I use the "B" a lot. Bolding is always meant for emphasis, focus, and visibility.... not "bullying".  Certainly not intimidation. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Crazy Cat

[Vashezzo 43]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

@AndiB +1 on this.  This is a core principal.  Respect each other :)!  We all have our own perspectives, biases and good+bad days... however we have to try our best to respect and support each other.  It's what a community and family does -- and what VJ should be all about!

 

Thinking on the mod side.  If I go back to the early days of VJ, my moderation strategy was always to gently guide things back on course as a first reaction rather than heavy handed "rubber stamps".  I also tried to lead by example and set the 'right' tone.  I think it was helpful and wonder if this is an area we can work on collectively?

 

6 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Perhaps, but also perhaps not.  Context is important.

Again, the crucial step is to report anything that seems to violate the Terms of Service.

I originally wasn't going to post in this thread, but after seeing this post from TboneTX and clicking his profile I felt like I had to say something. The request is that users trust the mod team to handle issues with respect and to support each other, but what do I see when I click the name of the most active user I've noticed on this site?


I see a smorgasbord of very political, very polarizing topics. In a single screenshot I see satirical pro-gun content (which as a teacher really isn't funny to me). I see misogyny. I see a 13-page thread of far right links (many of which have questionable veracity) where the mod talks the president I voted for. I see anti-climate posting. I see anti-vax/anti-covid posting. In essence, half of the potential user base for this site would be immediately turned off.

 

From the Terms of Service for the site, users agree to not:

Publish, post, upload, distribute, disseminate or offer to disseminate any inappropriate, offensive, defamatory, infringing, obscene or unlawful/illegal material, information or content.   I speak for myself in saying that I find many of the posts I saw to be inappropriate, offensive, and defamatory. How can I trust the mod team to enforce a ToS if they won't follow it themselves?   I looked at the off-topic forum in general to see if there was any more balance to the discussion and saw this:     It's entirely right-wing, and some of the threads fit solidly into the far right. I live in a "blue city", my mother is immuno-compromised and has spent years worrying about catching covid from an anti-vaxxer. This is not a welcoming place for me. I know I'm not alone either - I've seen several people talk about the "politics" of VJ as being unwelcoming to them. (I'm thinking in particular about trans individuals who feel like the mods here quite literally would prefer that they did not exist.) But this is my first time checking it for myself, and it's way worse than I thought. I seriously wonder if the non-immigration-related forums are doing any good for this site.         Also, to move to a new topic, I'll give another example from yesterday - the ToS explicitly states: In the discussion forums you may discuss or recommend third-party Web sites, goods or services, so long as you have no financial interest in and receive no direct or indirect benefit from such Web sites, products or services, or the recommendation of such. The VisaJourney Websites and Services contain links to third party web sites that are maintained by others. These links are provided solely as a convenience to you and not as an endorsement by VisaJourney of the contents on such third-party Web sites. VisaJourney is not responsible for the content of linked third-party sites and does not make any representations regarding the content or accuracy of materials on such third-party Web sites. If you decide to access linked third-party Web sites, you do so at your own risk. Yet this mod claims that outside links are forbidden.   Why would I trust the mods to enforce the ToS if they directly contradict it in their posting? Anyway, this whole experience has disgusted me, and I certainly won't be recommending VJ the same way I used to.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Vashezzo

[Rocio0010 5,580]

1 hour ago, Vashezzo said:

 

I originally wasn't going to post in this thread, but after seeing this post from TboneTX and clicking his profile I felt like I had to say something. The request is that users trust the mod team to handle issues with respect and to support each other, but what do I see when I click the name of the most active user I've noticed on this site?


I see a smorgasbord of very political, very polarizing topics. In a single screenshot I see satirical pro-gun content (which as a teacher really isn't funny to me). I see misogyny. I see a 13-page thread of far right links (many of which have questionable veracity) where the mod talks the president I voted for. I see anti-climate posting. I see anti-vax/anti-covid posting. In essence, half of the potential user base for this site would be immediately turned off.

 

From the Terms of Service for the site, users agree to not:

Publish, post, upload, distribute, disseminate or offer to disseminate any inappropriate, offensive, defamatory, infringing, obscene or unlawful/illegal material, information or content.   I speak for myself in saying that I find many of the posts I saw to be inappropriate, offensive, and defamatory. How can I trust the mod team to enforce a ToS if they won't follow it themselves?   I looked at the off-topic forum in general to see if there was any more balance to the discussion and saw this:     It's entirely right-wing, and some of the threads fit solidly into the far right. I live in a "blue city", my mother is immuno-compromised and has spent years worrying about catching covid from an anti-vaxxer. This is not a welcoming place for me. I know I'm not alone either - I've seen several people talk about the "politics" of VJ as being unwelcoming to them. (I'm thinking in particular about trans individuals who feel like the mods here quite literally would prefer that they did not exist.) But this is my first time checking it for myself, and it's way worse than I thought. I seriously wonder if the non-immigration-related forums are doing any good for this site.         Also, to move to a new topic, I'll give another example from yesterday - the ToS explicitly states: In the discussion forums you may discuss or recommend third-party Web sites, goods or services, so long as you have no financial interest in and receive no direct or indirect benefit from such Web sites, products or services, or the recommendation of such. The VisaJourney Websites and Services contain links to third party web sites that are maintained by others. These links are provided solely as a convenience to you and not as an endorsement by VisaJourney of the contents on such third-party Web sites. VisaJourney is not responsible for the content of linked third-party sites and does not make any representations regarding the content or accuracy of materials on such third-party Web sites. If you decide to access linked third-party Web sites, you do so at your own risk. Yet this mod claims that outside links are forbidden.   Why would I trust the mods to enforce the ToS if they directly contradict it in their posting? Anyway, this whole experience has disgusted me, and I certainly won't be recommending VJ the same way I used to.

Again, context is KEY. Andi B started this thread to talk about negative attitudes in replies to people posting immigration- related questions, queries, etc. However, every single link you posted in your comment pertains to the off- topic forum. There is a reason why it is called that way. Links are forbidden because, as someone else explained in this very same thread, VJ is free to use, but not free to operate. Therefore, said links related to immigration might contain competitor advertisement. 

In all honesty, I am baffled that adults are so thin- skinned.

 

Do I agree with every single thing that TBone posts? Probably not.

Am I going to change his mind? Probably not.

Is he going to change mine? Probably not.

Do I know 100% the tone he is trying to convey? Probably not.

Am I going to tell him not to post said stuff in the off- topic thread? Certainly not.

Am I going to waste my time and energy arguing with him (or anyone else that posts things I don't agree with)? Maybe, depending on the day, my mood, etc.

 

But we have to understand that people HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT to free thinking. Democracy at its core. Democracy, and respect towards people that have different opinions. I am a teacher too, and I am surprised that other teachers don't understand this.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Rocio0010

[Redro 4,611]

53 minutes ago, Vashezzo said:

 

Yet this mod claims that outside links are forbidden.   Why would I trust the mods to enforce the ToS if they directly contradict it in their posting? Anyway, this whole experience has disgusted me, and I certainly won't be recommending VJ the same way I used to.

Did you read the sticky at the topic of CEHST? 

BELOW IS BOLDED FOR EMPHASIS: 

 

While moderators cannot and do not read every post in this forum, we will action reports sent to us, and we will apply the TOS to posts the same as any other forum.

Also, when posting news articles please use a format similar to the following post in the Immigration News forum:
http://www.visajourn...p?showtopic=466
You should never copy entire articles from other websites. Only copy the first few paragraphs (fair use) and then add a link to the original article so people can finish reading there if they are interested.

 

1. You're allowed to post articles in the CEHST. 

2. You can disagree with @TBoneTX's political viewpoint. But, was his political viewpoint hindering his moderation ability? Were you aware of his leanings before you clicked on his profile or did you only realize this when you clicked on his post history.

 

If you don't like what you see in the CEHST, you can report comments that go against the terms of service. Explain why they are incorrect and "because they have a right wing slant" probably isn't a great reason. 

Or you can post articles that contradict and disagree with the articles posted by the moderator in question and have a debate. 

[Crazy Cat 41,984]

1 hour ago, Vashezzo said:

 

 

I think it is TOTALLY inappropriate to bring politics into this thread.    

Edited July 23, 2023 by Crazy Cat

[meladee 160]

24 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

I think it is TOTALLY inappropriate to bring politics into this thread.    

 

I think it is TOTALLY inappropriate to bring politics into an immigration forum, and especially to expect us to read comments with a "brotherly arm around our shoulders" while they are constantly, actively spewing hate-filled rhetoric towards us and our communities.

@steve I never felt comfortable here, but I put a lot of time and effort into trying to help people here anyway. I would have done more if I felt like it was a truly open forum. I had spreadsheets and template letters and extensive notes on the Appropriations Act that I never expected I would dive so deeply into. And so much data, shared by other more technical users, until suddenly it was verboden. And once that was gone, I had no reason to stick around and tip toe through the mods to help new users, lest I get caught up in one of the classic VJ Power User Pile Ons™.  Then, finding "Current Events and Hot Social Topics" hurt me and made me angry that I contributed to a site with an underbelly of hate speech.

I am glad I have found a kind and helpful immigration community elsewhere, and I hope other people, particularly those near the beginning of their journey, are able to do the same.

[Vashezzo 43]

57 minutes ago, Rocio0010 said:

But we have to understand that people HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT to free thinking. Democracy at its core. Democracy, and respect towards people that have different opinions. I am a teacher too, and I am surprised that other teachers don't understand this.

 

People do have the right to freedom of thought and freedom of speech. But private forums also have the right to enforce content guidelines, and I want to make sure that @steve is aware of the effects his content policy has on the perception of his forum. If he would rather keep that content on the site and lose some users, that's totally within his rights.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Redro said:

 

 

 

While moderators cannot and do not read every post in this forum, we will action reports sent to us, and we will apply the TOS to posts the same as any other forum.

 

 

This does not address the portion of my post pointing out that TBoneTX is not applying the ToS, and is directly contradicting it in other places on this forum.

 

52 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

I think it is TOTALLY inappropriate to bring politics into this thread.    

 

I honestly think it's totally inappropriate to bring non-immigration politics into this site in general, which is my point. The way you feel when reading my post is the way many of us feel when we see the off-topic discussions on VJ.

 

 

To further my point - I will share a snippet from an immigration Slack I am in.

 

Again, it's not my place to tell @steve what he should or should not do, but it is a fact that VJ as it currently exists is alienating a non-negligible portion of the people who try to use it. This thread is a symptom of that, and funnily enough the reply to my post trying to language harpy me by focusing on the word "replies" in the title is just another example of the kind of behavior that makes this website unenjoyable to use.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Vashezzo

[Rocio0010 5,580]

10 minutes ago, meladee said:

but I put a lot of time and effort into trying to help people here anyway

Weird. I have been a very active user for four years now, and this is the first time I have ever seen your name.

 

10 minutes ago, meladee said:

actively spewing hate-filled rhetoric towards us and our communities

Link? I have never, ever seen hatred in here, let alone towards certain communities. And I have been here every day for the last four years.

 

11 minutes ago, meladee said:

hurt me and made me angry that I contributed to a site with an underbelly of hate speech

Can we not share different views on certain topics and have respectful debates?

[Rocio0010 5,580]

8 minutes ago, Vashezzo said:

But private forums also have the right to enforce content guidelines

Yet VJ is a public forum.

 

8 minutes ago, Vashezzo said:

The way you feel when reading my post is the way many of us feel when we see the off-topic discussions on VJ.

Off- topic means "not immigration related". Therefore, politics is allowed in there. Please, don't take me wrong, sometimes the intent comes across as rude in written messages. But my question is, is someone forcing you to read the off- topic threads? Why is it so hard to just ignore the threads you don't like in VJ? Again, it is the off- topic thread, and people have the right to post whatever they want to in there. It's called freedom of speech, and it is one of the principles in the US Constitution.

 

11 minutes ago, Vashezzo said:

This thread is a symptom of that, and funnily enough the reply to my post trying to language harpy me by focusing on the word "replies" in the title is just another example of the kind of behavior that makes this website unenjoyable to use.

How am I supposed to convey emphasis? You know, when people talk, they use tone and pitch to convey emphasis. I do it, you do it, your mom does it, the Presiden does, everyone does. I don't have that possibility when the message is written. How am I supposed to convey emphasis? Are we really getting upset and nitpicking on one word that is bolded for emphasis? Again, what happened to free speech?

 

Also, in the snapshot you share someone calls people that have different opinions "boomers". Free speech, fine. But is it not disrespectful to label people like that? Or is it only disrespectful when someone else does it to you? 

[Redro 4,611]

9 hours ago, TempunAlex said:

 If veteran members are stressed from answering a great many threads across the entire forum, they should simply take a break. There are absolutely no excuses as to why anyone should think they can reply to anyone else with a tone that undermines them and sometimes plain old ridicules them for everyone to jump in on and piggy back off of that behavior. I look forward to improvement and enjoying many topics across the board with fellow members moving forward and hope this greatly changes in the near future. 

 

5 minutes ago, Vashezzo said:

I honestly think it's totally inappropriate to bring non-immigration politics into this site in general, which is my point. The way you feel when reading my post is the way many of us feel when we see the off-topic discussions on VJ.

I think moving the discussion away from @AndiB's OP is taking away from her point. 

What happens in CEHST and Off Topic are clearly marked  as not about immigration. 

Former and current members of VJ go to these threads to talk about beauty, games, things you could have been doing while waiting on immigration, rants about your day and issues you're having in your life.... and yes there is a very inflammatory politics forum.

You could call it a place where members "go of to blow steam when they want to take a break".... 

 

If you think certain topics should be nuked from the forum. Make it a your own separate post.

If you think this should be solely about immigration. Make that a post/suggestion.

VJ has existed for a long, long, time before you started your immigration journey. And it has evolved. If you read extremely old threads you'll see people were extremely offensive rude and inflammatory. Be the change you want to see. Conduct yourself as you want others to conduct themselves and if you see something harmful or offensive: report it. 

 

The moderators on here have stated OVER AND OVER again they cannot monitor every single post made. If you disagree with someone or think it is offensive REPORT IT. If you think something shouldn't be there: REPORT IT. You can also block certain posters so you no longer see what they post. I've done that with several members. 

[Boiler 45,733]

I did not realise that VJ was founded in 2003, for some reason I thought it had been around a lot longer. I can confirm there was very little info around then, I think when I joined I was using dial up and even accessing the web was tricky.

 

As far as CEHST is concerned I do not remember it when I joined, maybe it came later, maybe I never noticed, not sure. Inevitably it is a reflection of who posts and what they post and I do know that has varied a lot over recent years. And will no doubt continue to do so.

 

We have certainly had lots of G members , some L, not sure I remember any others but then there is no particular reason they would mention unless they had particular issues due the overseas country concerned.

 

Every now and then somebody resurrects some of the golden threads from VJ's past, there may be some truth that VJ was responsible for 90 Day Fiance, well the inspiration, my observation is that things are much tamer around here than they used to be.

[Rocio0010 5,580]

2 minutes ago, Boiler said:

I did not realise that VJ was founded in 2003, for some reason I thought it had been around a lot longer. I can confirm there was very little info around then, I think when I joined I was using dial up and even accessing the web was tricky.

 

As far as CEHST is concerned I do not remember it when I joined, maybe it came later, maybe I never noticed, not sure. Inevitably it is a reflection of who posts and what they post and I do know that has varied a lot over recent years. And will no doubt continue to do so.

 

We have certainly had lots of G members , some L, not sure I remember any others but then there is no particular reason they would mention unless they had particular issues due the overseas country concerned.

 

Every now and then somebody resurrects some of the golden threads from VJ's past, there may be some truth that VJ was responsible for 90 Day Fiance, well the inspiration, my observation is that things are much tamer around here than they used to be.

True. I actually made a thread not too long ago asking people to share the craziest VJ threads and boy, I'm still eating popcorn!

[Boiler 45,733]

Just now, Rocio0010 said:

True. I actually made a thread not too long ago asking people to share the craziest VJ threads and boy, I'm still eating popcorn!

 

I have always found the search function here a pain, seems other people are much better at finding the older stuff than I am. I think my first venture into the wild side was RUB?, there were some very long epics back then that went on forever. I wish I had catalogued them now and certainly am not going to go back and find them, you could spend months doing that.

[meladee 160]

24 minutes ago, Rocio0010 said:

Weird. I have been a very active user for four years now, and this is the first time I have ever seen your name.

I mostly stay in the K-1 forum, I can't recall seeing you there either. But as I said comment, I don't feel comfortable posting as much as I could have. Sometimes I put in the effort of researching an answer, finding a credible source, and drafting the comment, but then don't post to avoid the pile on or the oft-weaponised "confused" reaction.

 

25 minutes ago, Rocio0010 said:

Link? I have never, ever seen hatred in here, let alone towards certain communities. And I have been here every day for the last four years.

If a trans person were to search for information on what they could expect from their journey, the first results listed are anti-trans threads where the Global Mod is saying "These people are insane and should be institutionalized." before they would find any useful immigration related information.

 

25 minutes ago, Rocio0010 said:

Can we not share different views on certain topics and have respectful debates?

There's nothing respectful about the content that's being posted, and I just don't think it belongs here in the first place. Obviously, Free Speech, yada yada yada --  it just means I don't want to be a part of it.