Divorce after removal of conditions but before N-400 filed

[Family 4,065]

4 hours ago, Mobius2 said:

The important thing here to consider is that your divorce needs to happen quickly, however, given there is a child involved this may not be the case.

 

But the more important thing is that your I-751 (Joint) approval must not happen after your divorce is finalized (that would be improper approval).

            * Once your divorce is finalized or you know it's VERY near then go ahead and inform USCIS to amend your I751 to Divorce waiver.

 

If I-751 (joint) gets approved without RFE, without an interview before your divorce gets finalized, then you are fine for N400

You are right. ..and your experience of great value to OP. 

[Mobius2 48]

4 minutes ago, Family said:

You are right. ..and your experience of great value to OP. 

 

In the end, my aim is to help a person in a similar situation that is suffering the same way I did. I could have quit these forums and never looked back since I got what I wanted but I know the misery I went through, the uncertainty of life, dependents, was real and beyond the comprehension of these jokers who wouldn't waste a breath misleading people. 

 

I don't expect much from the mods either, since post counts trump actual, verified, proper information here. 

 

 

[Boiler 45,756]

Nice day, I have a beer, so instead of my usual short answers sit back and enjoy a rare Boiler special.

 

Hacking for those who do not know is an immigration Lawyer and has a show on You Tube, usually around 4pm Central Time and they last about an hour.

 

I guess he averages 3 or 4 a week, he has over 400 now and they are not indexed so no way of searching for the stories. He has the usual boring stuff which I tend to fast forward through and some classics of the type that used to be such a feature on VJ. I certainly have not watched all of them.

 

If memory serves me right Hacking has been a Lawyer for 14 years, his wife who is Egyptian seems the brains of the operation, I think she used to be a Immigration Law Lecturer. She has appeared a couple of times. Hacking seems to specialise in Mandamus, also attends interviews but not sure if he does much day to day stuff. I think he is more PR/Marketing/Management.

 

Anyway the one I am thinking about was earlier this year, this guy called in asking about WoM and then working backwards it all came out.

 

I think he was from Serbia or somewhere close, he had come to the US on a B, married a USC got his GC and then filed to remove conditions. He also filed N400.

 

So they end up divorcing and he is legally divorced and receives his 10 year GC based on good faith marriage within a few days of each other.

 

Now if he had stopped there all would have been good.

 

But he goes home and marries his old GF and wants to bring her to the US. So he also wants to naturalise partly due to the 5 year requirement.

 

Anyway so he interviews and these dates come up, so multiple issues. He hears nothing, so what to do.

 

A WoM is fast forward button essentially, gets them to act. But do you want them to act. What would happen with the red flags a flying.

 

None of this used to be an issue, you are interviewed with your spouse to remove conditions and if you turn up without them they will ask why and if the answer is well we are getting divorced end of interview, file with a Divorce Waiver.

 

Obviously this is the sort of situation where the Lawyers make the money. Hacking was shaking his head and wondering what they would do, after all none of this is in the Regulations, there is no this is what happens as it should not happen.

 

My personal thoughts is that they would take the view that the 10 year GC was incorrectly issued and he would need to remove conditions with a waiver starting again, they could of course take a nastier view. Possible misrep change, Good Moral Character?

 

Now he was not able to go back in time, this case is very different, no need to go down the rabbit hole. Especially as the OP wishes to Naturalise.

 

 

 

 

 

[TBoneTX 45,659]

The insults toward experienced members stop here, immediately and permanently.

---

In Virginia -- apparently where the OP lives -- divorcing couples must be legally separated for 6 months before a divorce can be declared final, and it takes uncertain time beyond that for divorce certificates to become available.  If this is the variable holding up the availability of the divorce certificate, it would seem to influence the timing of the I-751 divorce-waiver conversion.

[Boiler 45,756]

4 hours ago, Mobius2 said:

 

Because the other path can lead to a deportation court (yes still approvable but more messy, expensive, time-consuming, and worrisome). While this path also has a clean path. Just differs from your opinon.

 

Funny, you say lucky. Pretty much trashing the hard-earned law degrees, the officers who do this every day. 

A Divorce Waiver is extremely unlikely to lead to Deportation Court.

 

I favour the clean route, no way I would want to try and explain this at a N400. With or without an Immigration Lawyer present.

 

RoC seems to be one thing, N 400 they usually take much more seriously.

 

Do USCIS staff have Law Degrees? Some must. I had assumed most do not but do not know.

[Mobius2 48]

3 minutes ago, Boiler said:

A Divorce Waiver is extremely unlikely to lead to Deportation Court.

 

I favour the clean route, no way I would want to try and explain this at a N400. With or without an Immigration Lawyer present.

 

RoC seems to be one thing, N 400 they usually take much more seriously.

 

Do USCIS staff have Law Degrees? Some must. I had assumed most do not but do not know.

 

A denial before the OP can file for a divorce waiver can lead to deportation court.

 

Again it's your opinion against not only seasoned lawyers but also a former USCIS IO. 

 

They take everything seriously.

 

I was referring to immigration lawyers such as Hacking and not IOs. But rest assured they are good at their jobs, given both GC and N400 apps go through a final approval process.

[Mobius2 48]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

Nice day, I have a beer, so instead of my usual short answers sit back and enjoy a rare Boiler special.

 

Hacking for those who do not know is an immigration Lawyer and has a show on You Tube, usually around 4pm Central Time and they last about an hour.

 

I guess he averages 3 or 4 a week, he has over 400 now and they are not indexed so no way of searching for the stories. He has the usual boring stuff which I tend to fast forward through and some classics of the type that used to be such a feature on VJ. I certainly have not watched all of them.

 

If memory serves me right Hacking has been a Lawyer for 14 years, his wife who is Egyptian seems the brains of the operation, I think she used to be a Immigration Law Lecturer. She has appeared a couple of times. Hacking seems to specialise in Mandamus, also attends interviews but not sure if he does much day to day stuff. I think he is more PR/Marketing/Management.

 

Anyway the one I am thinking about was earlier this year, this guy called in asking about WoM and then working backwards it all came out.

 

I think he was from Serbia or somewhere close, he had come to the US on a B, married a USC got his GC and then filed to remove conditions. He also filed N400.

 

So they end up divorcing and he is legally divorced and receives his 10 year GC based on good faith marriage within a few days of each other.

 

Now if he had stopped there all would have been good.

 

But he goes home and marries his old GF and wants to bring her to the US. So he also wants to naturalise partly due to the 5 year requirement.

 

Anyway so he interviews and these dates come up, so multiple issues. He hears nothing, so what to do.

 

A WoM is fast forward button essentially, gets them to act. But do you want them to act. What would happen with the red flags a flying.

 

None of this used to be an issue, you are interviewed with your spouse to remove conditions and if you turn up without them they will ask why and if the answer is well we are getting divorced end of interview, file with a Divorce Waiver.

 

Obviously this is the sort of situation where the Lawyers make the money. Hacking was shaking his head and wondering what they would do, after all none of this is in the Regulations, there is no this is what happens as it should not happen.

 

My personal thoughts is that they would take the view that the 10 year GC was incorrectly issued and he would need to remove conditions with a waiver starting again, they could of course take a nastier view. Possible misrep change, Good Moral Character?

 

Now he was not able to go back in time, this case is very different, no need to go down the rabbit hole. Especially as the OP wishes to Naturalise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "old GF" is the red flag here more than anything else. It's one of the tactics abusers use to get an immigration benefit, leave/ divorce their spouse, and file for their original GF, which USCIS perceives was the plan from the start. Often time in that case the original marriage is then questioned, which is where he failed.

 

Now let's take the divorce side. There are only two marital statuses, married or divorced. Separation itself isn't a status nor a reason for denial. If the person/ his spouse hasn't moved out of the house (Hence no AR-11), no one withdrew the I-751 joint, and no RFE issued or interview is scheduled. If all this happened before a divorce is finalized (i.e. marital status still married) then the approval was not improper. 

 

FYI, a story from Amani. One of her clients had her divorce finalized one day after her joint 1-751 approval, with no interview. She had an n400 (5-year) interview and was approved as well.

 

No one said this is the best way and the aim is not to trick USCIS but to submit information only when it's deemed necessary and applicable according to the laws.

 

 

 

[Boiler 45,756]

4 minutes ago, Mobius2 said:

 

A denial before the OP can file for a divorce waiver can lead to deportation court.

 

Again it's your opinion against not only seasoned lawyers but also a former USCIS IO. 

 

They take everything seriously.

 

I was referring to immigration lawyers such as Hacking and not IOs. But rest assured they are good at their jobs, given both GC and N400 apps go through a final approval process.

We have had loads of divorce situations on here, not one has led to Deportation. Now if you have an example of a good faith marriage that failed before the 2 years and the person was deported I am all ears.

 

I personally consider RoC a waste of everyone's time, by definition if this something you take seriously who do they waive interviews, have they ever waived a N400 interview? Why do things come up at a N400 that a serious review at the RoC stage would have addressed?

 

I am ambivalent about switching to a divorce waiver or filing a new clean case. I can see arguments both ways. I do see the issue of a 10 year GC being issued whilst going through the Divorce process on the basis of a current valid marriage problematic. Certainly if they issue the card  before you notify them of what is happening. Previously it could not happen, now it can and it seems nobody considered this.

[justmarriedusciti 7]

Lots of very good replies here. I wanted to also give some additional input and had follow up questions:

 

• I don't have any ulterior motives. Finding even one woman to marry was hard enough for an introvert like me. I am not sure when I will be ready to marry or meet another woman again as this marriage left me devastated.
• All I want right now is for my child to be happy in this young age. Since I am the one making more money, I hope I don't get deported due to some legal twist as that would wreck my child's life. My wife is already in the process of getting another man, if all the signs of her behaviors and makeup purchases on credit cards are to be believed. I moved here on an H1B, which was dual intent.
• I-751 currently takes anywhere from 18 to 31 months to get approved. I am sure my divorce will be finalized before then. I could file for a divorce waiver and have my I-751 altered, but I'm not sure if that's needed since I-751 processing is taking so long these days. If my wife does agree to a speedier divorce (i.e. through mediation), I can then file for the waiver asap.
  • Could thus the I-751 processing take longer if I were to ask for a divorce waiver much before I am certain of my divorce finalization? USCIS certainly likes to put a lot of things on the bottom of the pile due to their workload.

Tha

[Boiler 45,756]

24 minutes ago, Mobius2 said:

 

 

The "old GF" is the red flag here more than anything else. It's one of the tactics abusers use to get an immigration benefit, leave/ divorce their spouse, and file for their original GF, which USCIS perceives was the plan from the start. Often time in that case the original marriage is then questioned, which is where he failed.

 

Now let's take the divorce side. There are only two marital statuses, married or divorced. Separation itself isn't a status nor a reason for denial. If the person/ his spouse hasn't moved out of the house (Hence no AR-11), no one withdrew the I-751 joint, and no RFE issued or interview is scheduled. If all this happened before a divorce is finalized (i.e. marital status still married) then the approval was not improper. 

 

FYI, a story from Amani. One of her clients had her divorce finalized one day after her joint 1-751 approval, with no interview. She had an n400 (5-year) interview and was approved as well.

 

No one said this is the best way and the aim is not to trick USCIS but to submit information only when it's deemed necessary and applicable according to the laws.

 

In the era of interviews if you sought to remove conditions whilst you were separated, still married maybe still living in the same house would you be approved?

 

My recollection is that your case would be put on hold pending submission of a Divorce Certificate. And filing with a Divorce Waiver.

 

If it is not an issue being separated etc why is there an issue notifying them, if all is good why is this an issue? 

[Boiler 45,756]

6 minutes ago, justmarriedusciti said:

Lots of very good replies here. I wanted to also give some additional input and had follow up questions:

 

• I don't have any ulterior motives. Finding even one woman to marry was hard enough for an introvert like me. I am not sure when I will be ready to marry or meet another woman again as this marriage left me devastated.
• All I want right now is for my child to be happy in this young age. Since I am the one making more money, I hope I don't get deported due to some legal twist as that would wreck my child's life. My wife is already in the process of getting another man, if all the signs of her behaviors and makeup purchases on credit cards are to be believed. I moved here on an H1B, which was dual intent.
• I-751 currently takes anywhere from 18 to 31 months to get approved. I am sure my divorce will be finalized before then. I could file for a divorce waiver and have my I-751 altered, but I'm not sure if that's needed since I-751 processing is taking so long these days. If my wife does agree to a speedier divorce (i.e. through mediation), I can then file for the waiver asap.
  • Could thus the I-751 processing take longer if I were to ask for a divorce waiver much before I am certain of my divorce finalization? USCIS certainly likes to put a lot of things on the bottom of the pile due to their workload.

Tha

 

Timelines here generally tend to be looking back, looking forward is a guess. I doubt they will get quicker but I have been wrong before.

 

Getting deported seems highly unlikely, plenty of Divorce Waivers here, none had been deported. And if you think removing conditions is long well. Also IJ's do not like being messed around with this sort of case.

 

Divorce is a State issue, you do have the I 864 in your back pocket and if she is logical then she should want to do everything to enable you to obtain Citizenship. She may need reminding.

 

 

[Mobius2 48]

13 minutes ago, justmarriedusciti said:

Lots of very good replies here. I wanted to also give some additional input and had follow up questions:

 

• I don't have any ulterior motives. Finding even one woman to marry was hard enough for an introvert like me. I am not sure when I will be ready to marry or meet another woman again as this marriage left me devastated.
• All I want right now is for my child to be happy in this young age. Since I am the one making more money, I hope I don't get deported due to some legal twist as that would wreck my child's life. My wife is already in the process of getting another man, if all the signs of her behaviors and makeup purchases on credit cards are to be believed. I moved here on an H1B, which was dual intent.
• I-751 currently takes anywhere from 18 to 31 months to get approved. I am sure my divorce will be finalized before then. I could file for a divorce waiver and have my I-751 altered, but I'm not sure if that's needed since I-751 processing is taking so long these days. If my wife does agree to a speedier divorce (i.e. through mediation), I can then file for the waiver asap.
  • Could thus the I-751 processing take longer if I were to ask for a divorce waiver much before I am certain of my divorce finalization? USCIS certainly likes to put a lot of things on the bottom of the pile due to their workload.

Tha

 

 

 

I-751s are at the bottom of their workload, the reason being you are here, legal, able to work, etc. 

 

With current times, I'm sure your divorce will be finalized before it's approved but also you could be "lucky" and your i-751 gets approved beforehand.

 

Be careful when amending your I-751 because once you do it, you are on the clock. USCIS will give you around 87 days to produce the final decree. Will you have it in that time window?

 

Another route you could take (after a consultation with a lawyer) is to withdraw your I-751 joint and file a new divorce waiver i751 but the question again might be, where is the decree in that short span of RFE?  Actually, by law, you are not even able to file nor amend your i-751 until you have it. Some IOs just let you do it.

 

Relax, this is far from over, the fact that you have a child is above everything regarding the bonafide of your marriage, even USCIS's list of evidences says that....trust me some people still do not believe it 😒

 

The absolute worst thing that can happen (besides improper approval -avoid that like the plague) is deportation court but you have a 100.00% of winning that case, again, your child is proof enough.

[Mobius2 48]

18 minutes ago, Boiler said:

 

In the era of interviews if you sought to remove conditions whilst you were separated, still married maybe still living in the same house would you be approved?

 

My recollection is that your case would be put on hold pending submission of a Divorce Certificate. And filing with a Divorce Waiver.

 

If it is not an issue being separated etc why is there an issue notifying them, if all is good why is this an issue? 

 

More interviews today are waived only because of the huge backlog as well as the completeness of the evidence. In some cases even with a lot of evidence interviews were conducted.

 

And as I said in my post that you quoted, "no interview scheduled - approved properly". 

 

The reason is, if you inform them of separation (there's no obligation to do so), then you are forcing an interview and putting yourself on the 87 days clock. Most divorces take a lot longer than that, esp with a child, even more with a narc spouse.

[Boiler 45,756]

9 minutes ago, Mobius2 said:

 

More interviews today are waived only because of the huge backlog as well as the completeness of the evidence. In some cases even with a lot of evidence interviews were conducted.

 

And as I said in my post that you quoted, "no interview scheduled - approved properly". 

 

The reason is, if you inform them of separation (there's no obligation to do so), then you are forcing an interview and putting yourself on the 87 days clock. Most divorces take a lot longer than that, esp with a child, even more with a narc spouse.

I assume they are waived because it is all a bit of a farce, I find it difficult to believe that applications now are much more complete. Obviously neither of us really knows. Do not think they have said why, and then not sure I would believe what they say is the real reason. It is what it is.

 

Why are you forcing an interview if you are separated, you previously said it was not relevant, Married or Divorced.

 

This is what it says:

 

If you are in Divorce Proceedings but are not yet Divorced

If you are still married, but legally separated and/or in pending divorce or annulment proceedings and you filed a waiver request, we will issue a Request for Evidence (RFE) specifically asking for a copy of the final divorce decree or annulment, if applicable.

If you are still married, but legally separated and/or in pending divorce or annulment proceedings, and you filed a Form I-751 jointly, we will issue an RFE specifically asking for a copy of the final divorce decree or annulment and a statement that you would like to have your joint filing Form I-751 treated as a waiver.

After we receive the final divorce decree or annulment within the specified time period, we will amend the petition to indicate you have established  you are eligible to apply for a waiver of the joint filing requirement based on the termination of the marriage.

 

Now to be fair it does not talk specifically about if you are in divorce proceedings and have not filed a waiver.

 

We tend to talk about Divorce Waivers because it is the easiest option, there are other ways that do not require a finalised Divorce.

 

You may request a waiver of the joint filing requirements if:

Your deportation or removal would result in extreme hardship;
You or your parent entered into the marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but your spouse or stepparent subsequently died;
You entered into your marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but the marriage ended by annulment or divorce, and you were not at fault in failing to file a timely petition;
You entered into your marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but during the marriage you or your child were battered or subjected to extreme cruelty committed by your U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident spouse, and you were not at fault in failing to file a joint petition; or
Your parent entered into the marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but during marriage you were battered or subject to extreme cruelty by your parent or your U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident stepparent.

[Mobius2 48]

14 minutes ago, Boiler said:

I assume they are waived because it is all a bit of a farce, I find it difficult to believe that applications now are much more complete. Obviously neither of us really knows. Do not think they have said why, and then not sure I would believe what they say is the real reason. It is what it is.

 

Why are you forcing an interview if you are separated, you previously said it was not relevant, Married or Divorced.

 

This is what it says:

 

If you are in Divorce Proceedings but are not yet Divorced

If you are still married, but legally separated and/or in pending divorce or annulment proceedings and you filed a waiver request, we will issue a Request for Evidence (RFE) specifically asking for a copy of the final divorce decree or annulment, if applicable.

If you are still married, but legally separated and/or in pending divorce or annulment proceedings, and you filed a Form I-751 jointly, we will issue an RFE specifically asking for a copy of the final divorce decree or annulment and a statement that you would like to have your joint filing Form I-751 treated as a waiver.

After we receive the final divorce decree or annulment within the specified time period, we will amend the petition to indicate you have established  you are eligible to apply for a waiver of the joint filing requirement based on the termination of the marriage.

 

Now to be fair it does not talk specifically about if you are in divorce proceedings and have not filed a waiver.

 

We tend to talk about Divorce Waivers because it is the easiest option, there are other ways that do not require a finalised Divorce.

 

You may request a waiver of the joint filing requirements if:

Your deportation or removal would result in extreme hardship;
You or your parent entered into the marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but your spouse or stepparent subsequently died;
You entered into your marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but the marriage ended by annulment or divorce, and you were not at fault in failing to file a timely petition;
You entered into your marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but during the marriage you or your child were battered or subjected to extreme cruelty committed by your U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident spouse, and you were not at fault in failing to file a joint petition; or
Your parent entered into the marriage in good faith, and not to circumvent immigration laws, but during marriage you were battered or subject to extreme cruelty by your parent or your U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident stepparent.

 

But it's not a farce. Instead, a final check before a person is admitted as a full permanent resident and filter out marriage case abusers. Hold on to your logic that i751s for USCIS is a farce. 

 

But I didn't say there's no relevance. You are either married or divorced. Two distinct statuses. 

 

Nowhere does it say that a person is obliged to inform of separation/ pending divorce. The assumption is the person telling them.

 

Going back to your earlier pun that I got lucky, which entails that IOs/ supervisors are not double-checking their work.

 

Combine this with the farce, and it tells me that you have pretty much no respect and no trust in USCIS, yet you paste these text blocks here, to what end?

 

I think the OP has gotten the correct advice he deserves and is now in a better mindset.