Electric vehicles have an efficiency problem

[Dashinka 24,487]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

Tesla just continues to win everywhere despite reputations for degradation of  quality and service for the past 5 years. It is stunning how its competition manages to shoot itself in their feet while Tesla laughs at the world.

 

The consumer will win: cheaper ICEV and EVs coming our way.

 

I figure in 20 years, Tesla will be to cars, as Kleenex is to tissue paper and Aspirin is to acetylsalicylic acid. 

 

 

I am curious about the cheaper ICE vehicles.  Seems a lot of companies will need to raise prices on their ICE to make up the losses from the EVs.

 

Tesla's strategy in China is interesting, are they cutting their margins too much to dampen competition?

[Mike E 11,739]

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

Seems a lot of companies will need to raise prices on their ICE to make up the losses from the EVs.

Dealers and auto makers, like home builders, used the pandemic, climate change, “supply chain”, etc excuses to con consumers into paying more, suggesting that with 2 percent interest rates, 2 percent inflation, and stimulus money, they could afford it.

 

No more stim $, no more 2%, and no gullible consumers

 

It does not matter what it costs to make a car if consumers cannot afford it. And they cannot now. This is full employment economy paying poverty wages.

 

 

[Dashinka 24,487]

17 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Dealers and auto makers, like home builders, used the pandemic, climate change, “supply chain”, etc excuses to con consumers into paying more, suggesting that with 2 percent interest rates, 2 percent inflation, and stimulus money, they could afford it.

 

No more stim $, no more 2%, and no gullible consumers

 

It does not matter what it costs to make a car if consumers cannot afford it. And they cannot now. This is full employment economy paying poverty wages.

 

 

I tend to agree that a lot of car makers are pricing themselves out of selling much of anything.  The pendulum will swing back eventually.  No one the US seems to be making anything relatively small and inexpensive.  I suppose Toyota and Honda are the closest, the Big 3? are definitely not doing much for entry level vehicles thereby skewing the used care market.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Dashinka

[Boiler 45,466]

30 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I am curious about the cheaper ICE vehicles.  Seems a lot of companies will need to raise prices on their ICE to make up the losses from the EVs.

 

Tesla's strategy in China is interesting, are they cutting their margins too much to dampen competition?

The only thing more expensive is the battery everything else is the same or cheaper

 

Tesla seem to be the one with a margin to cut.

 

Certainly in the US they can look to big money on charging 

[TBoneTX 45,266]

I Rented A Tesla For A Week And Am Totally Sold On Gas-Powered Cars

 

After test-driving one for an entire week, we learned we will never buy a Tesla or any electric vehicle as long as we have the option of gas-powered cars or even hybrids.

 

https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/21/i-rented-a-tesla-for-a-week-and-am-totally-sold-on-gas-powered-cars/

[Dashinka 24,487]

7 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

I Rented A Tesla For A Week And Am Totally Sold On Gas-Powered Cars

 

After test-driving one for an entire week, we learned we will never buy a Tesla or any electric vehicle as long as we have the option of gas-powered cars or even hybrids.

 

https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/21/i-rented-a-tesla-for-a-week-and-am-totally-sold-on-gas-powered-cars/

To be fair, Tesla's and many other EVs are basically tablets on wheels, so a modicum of tech savviness is required.  I was interested in the comment about the need for texting while driving, I wish she had expanded on this a little more.  I suspect she was talking about the need to focus on the center console to do anything in the vehicle.  Not completely familiar with Tesla's (I have never driven one), but I believe they are highly dependent on that center screen which certainly can take someone's eyes off the road.  I see similar issues with other vehicles today, but in most of the ones I have driven recently, there was enough tactile controls for things like HVAC, wipers, etc. that the center screen was only used for navigation and audio.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Dashinka

[Boiler 45,466]

Van poof! Dutch e-bike maker VanMoof goes bankrupt, leaving riders stranded https://www.npr.org/2023/08/23/1195201692/vanmoof-ebikes-bankrupt-netherlands

 

Quote

"All bike brands have a certain standard," says Hartogs about VanMoof, "and they went around every standard that was available because they didn't want to do anything with regular bike parts. So now they created everything themselves, and it keeps breaking because they wanted to over-design it."

 

The same thing can of course happen to cars, no particular reason it should of course but very little seems to be open sourced. Something I had thought before, if Tesla is the Apple would it not make sense to have an Android system for EVs.

[Mike E 11,739]

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

To be fair, Tesla's and many other EVs are basically tablets on wheels, so a modicum of tech savviness is required.

 

 

Exactly. I have always used a similar term: “smartphone with 4 wheels” because there is in fact a phone built into a Tesla.

 

Most of the bad experience was because this was a rental. Several functions are most easily available from the Tesla smartphone app. The car is bound to a phone by the owner or lease holder. A renter is neither.

 

* no owners manual? It is accessible from the Tesla phone app.

 

* hard to lock car?  The phone makes it easy. But  I just do “walk away” locking on my Tesla , which is a setting on the car

 

I am sure there are higher end ICEVs with the same issues now. Cars that generally are not rented by most people. My other car is a 2007 Mercedes E350, and for its time, the level of technology is impressive compared to other cars made that model year. I will guess 2024 E350 works the same way as a Tesla in terms of locking, manual, etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

 

I was interested in the comment about the need for texting while driving, I wish she had expanded on this a little more.  I suspect she was talking about the need to focus on the center console to do anything in the vehicle.  Not completely familiar with Tesla's (I have never driven one), but I believe they are highly dependent on that center screen which certainly can take someone's eyes off the road.  I see similar issues with other vehicles today, but in most of the ones I have driven recently, there was enough tactile controls for things like HVAC, wipers, etc. that the center screen was only used for navigation and audio.

 

The original Tesla S and Tesla X had a display screen behind the wheel and center touch screen cleanly integrated into the center dash. The steering wheel had all those tactile controls. When using navigation, both screens had map and guidance.

 

Then the Model 3 and Y came out with the giant tablet bolted onto the center dash abf bi behind the wheel screen or tactile wheel controls. Which was fine: lower end car and if you wanted higher end features, buy an S or X. 
 

But then the S and X were refreshed and now the experience is the same:
 

Also, I did not understand the whining about being unable to find super chargers.  Not a problem IME unless they were not using interstates.

 

Tesla has these Destination Chargers at hotels and too many people think they are supposed to be a primary solution for charging while on road trips. They are not and never will be. Road trips are typically 600 miles per day. One would charge and EV up to 90 pct and drain it to 10 pct, leaving 80 pct of range. 600/0.8 = 750 mile range battery. Even if one had a 750 mile battery, it is physically impossible to charge 600 miles over night at a level 2 charger with current materials.

 

The car would have to weigh a third of what it does now, which might be possible if the frame is cast or 3D printed as single truss,  but my god the manufacturing cost.

 

Tesla should kill Hotel Destination Chargers as too many people are confused by them. Instead it should go all in on Super Chargers.

 

A level 2 charger partnership with AirBnB / VRBO makes sense though. If you are spending a week or more somewhere, it is like being at home:

 

* you do want to a dedicated level 3 charger where you sleep.

 

* you also are not charging 600 miles a day.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mike E

[TBoneTX 45,266]

Interesting comments, all.

 

I'm increasingly convinced that most people will take a look at EVs and conclude (separate from the expense) that they're simply not worth the headaches.

[Mike E 11,739]

Disruptive technology always has flaws compared to things they replace. Then they get better and the old thing falls into disuse. That’s why you stopped using a slide ruler in 1975, even though that Digimatic 8 from Sears cost 10 times more,  needed a power source, and didn’t have logarithms.
 

 

[TBoneTX 45,266]

2 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Then they get better

Often, arguably very often.

I don't see EVs improving on all necessary fronts by the time they're Mandated.

[Boiler 45,466]

I would have thought it was a lot more that 10 times.

 

The only real issue with EV's is the Batteries and I can see that can change, well has changed.

[Dashinka 24,487]

29 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Disruptive technology always has flaws compared to things they replace. Then they get better and the old thing falls into disuse. That’s why you stopped using a slide ruler in 1975, even though that Digimatic 8 from Sears cost 10 times more,  needed a power source, and didn’t have logarithms.
 

 

I still do not see how an EV is considered a disruptive technology.  The comparison between the slide rule and calculator does not really apply here.  There may be advantages to EVs as compared to ICEV such as less routine maintenance, etc., but there are certainly disadvantages such as faster tire wear, having a totaled vehicle after a relatively minor fender bender, towing, long trips, etc.  I see a lot of EV fans label those skeptical of EV’s functionality for their specific circumstances troglodytes, kind of a false label IMO.

[Mike E 11,739]

20 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

Often, arguably very often.

I don't see EVs improving on all necessary fronts by the time they're Mandated.

Agreed and not just the EVs themselves but the infrastructure:

 

* charging

* repair

 

Tesla had 1.4M cars on U.S. roads by the end of 2022. Its charging network is more than sufficient for all those cars. But

 

* there are entire states without a Tesla repair shop.

 

* it usually takes 2 weeks to get a service appointment

 

And the legacy automakers nominally can repair the EVs they make at any dealer, but the reality most dealers do not have technicians who can repair their EVs.

 

I can see individual medium sized cities in the sun belt adopting a mandate by 2030, but anything beyond that is not feasible. This mandate will be pushed repeatably like the REAL ID man date.
 

If the Dems do stick to it, they will swing more elections to the GOP.

 

The urgency to switch is not needed.

 

[Dashinka 24,487]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

Agreed and not just the EVs themselves but the infrastructure:

 

* charging

* repair

 

Tesla had 1.4M cars on U.S. roads by the end of 2022. Its charging network is more than sufficient for all those cars. But

 

* there are entire states without a Tesla repair shop.

 

* it usually takes 2 weeks to get a service appointment

 

And the legacy automakers nominally can repair the EVs they make at any dealer, but the reality most dealers do not have technicians who can repair their EVs.

 

I can see individual medium sized cities in the sun belt adopting a mandate by 2030, but anything beyond that is not feasible. This mandate will be pushed repeatably like the REAL ID man date.
 

If the Dems do stick to it, they will swing more elections to the GOP.

 

The urgency to switch is not needed.

 

I recently noticed a Tesla Model X traveling down the road at reduced speed and 4 ways on heading to one of the two or three service centers here in Michigan.  I wonder when independent shops will be allowed to service Teslas.