Electric vehicles have an efficiency problem

[Boiler 45,449]

The top tier was over a million and yes they were.

[Dashinka 24,481]

11 hours ago, W199 said:

I'll share my experience:

 

- In 2018, I got a Tesla model 3, long range AWD. It was a last minute decision because it was the last day to get the $10K in rebates. 

- Myself, and at dozen other people at work have a Tesla, and we all absolutely love it and can't imagine going back to an ICE.

- I have 125K miles on it, and its like new,  and have done  zero maintenance except for new wiper blades, and tires.

- I have saved countless thousands in gas, ooil changes, etc  since my local electricity is municipal and its so cheap, about $0.14, 

- The first set of original tires went shockingly fast .. but I replaced them with michelin cross climinate which are all-climate (not all season), and they are very long lasting.

- The can is an absolute joy to ride, and once I think saved my life when it blasted a siren warning me a car was about to rear end me ( i changed lanes, and a car in the right lane zipped at a crazy speed)

- It makes the daily commute to work, about 55 miles, so much easier. I can't live without it now. 

- It makes long trips, NY, Montreal, etc.. etc. so much easier and well, It is actually faster for me because I don't need long rests

- Long trips don't take me much longer because I stop for food, and the charge is done charging even beforuse I finish eating .. making me rush back to the car before I get charged for IDLE time. I actually enjoy the opportunity to stop and charge it for 25-35 minutes and stretch my legs, restroom, and snack

- But true, if you can drive 4-6 hours without these breaks, an ICE car could save you about an 1+ hours or so.

- I wouldn't buy an EV without the Tesla supercharger for this reason, But as you know, the superchargers will allow access to many non-tesla's cars soon, if not now.

- I've heard of many delays for people getting into accidents and needing repairs, but that hasn't happened to me.

- The "auto pilot" and "summon" are more of a useless novelty. But the adaptive cruise control and self-driving in the lane, and auto lane changes work fantastic and very help when distracted. In severe weather, when you need the self-driving the most, it doesn't work because the lines in the road are not visible and the cameras get blocked.

- Winter time, the range goes down significantly. If making short hops in the winter, letting the batteries cool, down, it really consumes the battery incredibly fast. I wouldn't buy it in a winter climate. But in Montreal I saw countless of them, perhaps because the electricity there is also so cheap.

- After my Wife gets her license, I'll give her the model 3, and buy myself a model Y, but I'm not going to get the "full self-driving package" for $8K. The extra insurance for a new driver for it is very painful. And even for an experienced driver, many insurance companies seem to be jacking up the rate. Need to shop around.

 

Tesla is actually the best of the EV makers (Fisker just filed for bankruptcy), but they do have one big problem, they seem to have paused any meaningful vehicle development.  The 2024 Model 3 looks just like your 5 yr old vehicle, and is essentially the same, and the Model Y looks like the EV equivalent of the Pontiac Aztek.  The CT is just awful, and the stainless steel panels can be quite dangerous.  The S is the best styled EV sedan I have seen, but again, there have been little updates to it.  These are all issues when companies are trying to jump the chasm from early adopters to the early majority which EVs have not done yet.  We shall see how it all pans out, I am all for EVs for those that want them and are willing to pay the premium for them, but I am against any government subsidies for a consumer product that is essentially the same as other consumer products on the market, and I am not for believing EVs are emission free (VOCs are a major issue with EVs given all the plastics, adhesives, potting, thermal glue, etc. used in them even though government regulators ignore this pollution), or somehow a technological leap over current ICE equivalents.  I regularly (3-4 times a year) take long trips (1,000 mile+), and I would never take an EV on those trips (even a Tesla).  My wife and I share the driving and we take food with us instead of stopping at restaurants, so our stops are as short as possible.  We just took a 1200 mile trip with 7 stops (3 for fuel and 4 more for restroom/driving swaps) and did it in 16 hrs (averaged 75 mph).  If I did that in an EV, I would have added at least 6 stops of 20-60 minutes (depends on if I could find a DCFC), so worse case, a 16 hr trip would have taken 22 hrs which would have required spending money at a hotel.  Again, EVs are a fine option, but from a functional standpoint, they have some big limitations.

[W199 333]

5 hours ago, Dashinka said:

  We just took a 1200 mile trip with 7 stops (3 for fuel and 4 more for restroom/driving swaps) and did it in 16 hrs (averaged 75 mph).  If I did that in an EV, I would have added at least 6 stops of 20-60 minutes (depends on if I could find a DCFC), so worse case, a 16 hr trip would have taken 22 hrs which would have required spending money at a hotel.  Again, EVs are a fine option, but from a functional standpoint, they have some big limitations.

 

For your 1200 mile trip, assuming its not in the winter time,  with my 300+ mile range, Tesla, I estimate I would stop an average of about every 180 miles for charging. For about 25 minutes, probably 7 total stops. If there was a slow charger, it might be 40 minutes, but I'd just charge a little and drive to the next one.  Plus maybe about 5-10 minutes to drive to/from the charger.   I'd use the charging time to stretch my legs and use the restroom and eat.  Hence, I estimate I would lost 4 hours. Maybe add an extra hour buffer to be safe.  I'd definately need a hotel, but the cost of the hotel would be offset by the significant cost in gas savings, not to mention car maintance like oil changes, etc..),  I'd make it a stop-over too (adding even longer to the trip).  But the total cost of ownership is very hard to compare, so its probably not fair to compare. But I feel I have saved a significant amount money owning the Tesla compared to buying a simalarly priced premium/luxury ICE car, not even including the subsidies.   I do feel there is some risk, and one needs to have a back-up plan should something unexpected happen .. But I have had zero problems nor any my dozen coworkers who have it. My priority is the huge gas savings I am saving and the safety it adds to my commute (due to my bad driving habits). 

 

Yes, there is no doubt the charging will add a lot of extra time, and for many people that won't be acceptable.  My boss at work said if he wanted to stay married, he could not get an EV because that would require a stop on the way to his winter vacation home (since the range is so much less in the winter) which his Wife would not allow.. lol

 

F

[Boiler 45,449]

I know the pluses and minuses but am seriously tempted.

 

You can get a big discount used and new, I would be looking used.

 

17% EV drop year on year.

 

 

[Dashinka 24,481]

3 hours ago, W199 said:

 

For your 1200 mile trip, assuming its not in the winter time,  with my 300+ mile range, Tesla, I estimate I would stop an average of about every 180 miles for charging. For about 25 minutes, probably 7 total stops. If there was a slow charger, it might be 40 minutes, but I'd just charge a little and drive to the next one.  Plus maybe about 5-10 minutes to drive to/from the charger.   I'd use the charging time to stretch my legs and use the restroom and eat.  Hence, I estimate I would lost 4 hours. Maybe add an extra hour buffer to be safe.  I'd definately need a hotel, but the cost of the hotel would be offset by the significant cost in gas savings, not to mention car maintance like oil changes, etc..),  I'd make it a stop-over too (adding even longer to the trip).  But the total cost of ownership is very hard to compare, so its probably not fair to compare. But I feel I have saved a significant amount money owning the Tesla compared to buying a simalarly priced premium/luxury ICE car, not even including the subsidies.   I do feel there is some risk, and one needs to have a back-up plan should something unexpected happen .. But I have had zero problems nor any my dozen coworkers who have it. My priority is the huge gas savings I am saving and the safety it adds to my commute (due to my bad driving habits). 

 

Yes, there is no doubt the charging will add a lot of extra time, and for many people that won't be acceptable.  My boss at work said if he wanted to stay married, he could not get an EV because that would require a stop on the way to his winter vacation home (since the range is so much less in the winter) which his Wife would not allow.. lol

 

F

How much do you pay for DC fast charging at a Tesla site?  I have seen estimates at other non-Tesla DC chargers where the cost was on par or even higher than fuel.  I am curious as to how things will change as more OEMs adopt the NACS plug, and if this will back up Tesla charging sites.  I am also curious as to the move Tesla made to lay-off a large swath of their charging network staff.  I have heard some were rehired, but not sure what the long-term plan will be.  I always thought it was a great move for Tesla to build up their charging network, and to even allow free charging for the very early adopters even though this was obviously not sustainable which is why they are trying to get those cars off the road.

 

I know what you mean about people with different habits when taking long trips.  Some like to meander and take their time, some just want to get to their destination in the shortest time possible.  EVs can be used, but the second group which would not be happy.

[Boiler 45,449]

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

How much do you pay for DC fast charging at a Tesla site?  I have seen estimates at other non-Tesla DC chargers where the cost was on par or even higher than fuel.  I am curious as to how things will change as more OEMs adopt the NACS plug, and if this will back up Tesla charging sites.  I am also curious as to the move Tesla made to lay-off a large swath of their charging network staff.  I have heard some were rehired, but not sure what the long-term plan will be.  I always thought it was a great move for Tesla to build up their charging network, and to even allow free charging for the very early adopters even though this was obviously not sustainable which is why they are trying to get those cars off the road.

 

I know what you mean about people with different habits when taking long trips.  Some like to meander and take their time, some just want to get to their destination in the shortest time possible.  EVs can be used, but the second group which would not be happy.

My just down the road non Tesla 2 minutes away Supercharger I looked up and was 45c a KW, now I can sort of charge for free most of the time at 20 or 30 amps, and worst I end up paying 15c a KW at home.

 

So yes they are scamming you. 

 

But with my current usage, says last 3 years I would have had to Supercharge maybe twice?

 

Obvious not all usage is the same.

 

I looked at a F150 as I used to have one and I would get 15mpg. A Lighting I would do 2.2 miles a KW so say 7kw would be the same a gallon, 3.15 per gallon or 1.05 a gallon home charging or mostly for me nothing.

 

I filled up today at 3.50. Should have got 3c discount but the Kroeger system was down.

 

 

[Dashinka 24,481]

7 hours ago, Boiler said:

My just down the road non Tesla 2 minutes away Supercharger I looked up and was 45c a KW, now I can sort of charge for free most of the time at 20 or 30 amps, and worst I end up paying 15c a KW at home.

 

So yes they are scamming you. 

 

But with my current usage, says last 3 years I would have had to Supercharge maybe twice?

 

Obvious not all usage is the same.

 

I looked at a F150 as I used to have one and I would get 15mpg. A Lighting I would do 2.2 miles a KW so say 7kw would be the same a gallon, 3.15 per gallon or 1.05 a gallon home charging or mostly for me nothing.

 

I filled up today at 3.50. Should have got 3c discount but the Kroeger system was down.

 

 

So even with Tesla if one has to rely on their charger, the savings becomes much smaller.  During my recent FL trip, I saw many freeway stations around $3.20/gal.  This is the big challenge with EVs as more people who do not have access to home charging try them out.

[Boiler 45,449]

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

So even with Tesla if one has to rely on their charger, the savings becomes much smaller.  During my recent FL trip, I saw many freeway stations around $3.20/gal.  This is the big challenge with EVs as more people who do not have access to home charging try them out.

https://chargehub.com/

 

I looked at  couple of locations that are close to my regular destinations.

 

For example:

 

J1772

27 A, 6.5 kW

Cost: Energy 00:00 AM - 4:00 PM 0.202 USD per kWh 4:00 PM - 10:00 PM 0.429 USD per kWh 10:00 PM - 11:59 PM 0.202 USD per kWh Parking 0 USD per hour for first 240 mins Parking 2 USD per hour after 240 mins

 

So yesterday morning I could have used this for the 3 hours I was there, it is about 35 miles away. I would have charged about 20kw and cost me $4. 

 

Using the F150 example that would be enough for 44 miles so get me home, a level 2 Charger not a fast charger. I did fill up my Subaru about a mile away, cheaper there than where I am. Looking back at my old F150 it would have cost maybe twice this much in gas for the 20kw equivalent.

 

Superchargers are the same sort of cost it seems where I am as gas, now I would not be interested if I had to use only Superchargers. Seems they are also not good for the battery if you constantly use them. And the ones near ish me are 40c plus per kw.

 

Now I am looking at a big Truck, if you say looked at the Model 3 then your 3 hours charging on a Level 2 would get you 80 ish miles so enough for the round trip and a bit to spare.

 

Most days my car is parked a few feet from a 20amp/120v outlet for at least 12 hours. So worst case 30kw, 66 miles in a F150, 120 miles Model 3. And the normal tariff cost would be $4.50. I probably average about 50 miles a day.

 

 

 

[W199 333]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:58 PM, Dashinka said:

How much do you pay for DC fast charging at a Tesla site?  I have seen estimates at other non-Tesla DC chargers where the cost was on par or even higher than fuel.  I am curious as to how things will change as more OEMs adopt the NACS plug, and if this will back up Tesla charging sites.  I am also curious as to the move Tesla made to lay-off a large swath of their charging network staff.  I have heard some were rehired, but not sure what the long-term plan will be.  I always thought it was a great move for Tesla to build up their charging network, and to even allow free charging for the very early adopters even though this was obviously not sustainable which is why they are trying to get those cars off the road.

 

I'm not sure as I don't use it often and don't pay attention.  I am using rushing to the restroom by the time I stop at a supercharger lol

 

But checking my visa bills, they range from $10 to $24.  But on average I seem to pay about $18 when I do a somewhat large charge on a long trip.

 

The Tesla app says I used 8,230 KWH in the past year, total spent $1,604 with a gas savings of $1,800.  But they are using a 0.17 c/kw for hime charging, but its actually less with my municipal electric co.  Neighboring towns are much higher.   They also are using 0.40 for their supercharger rate in this calculation.  Not sure how accurate it i.

Edited June 19 by W199

[W199 333]

15 hours ago, Dashinka said:

So even with Tesla if one has to rely on their charger, the savings becomes much smaller.  During my recent FL trip, I saw many freeway stations around $3.20/gal.  This is the big challenge with EVs as more people who do not have access to home charging try them out.

I definately would not buy an EV without an home charger.  I just come home, park in my garage with automatically just plug it in. I could not imagine relying on an external charger for daily use, unless its the one at work.  It wouldn't be worth the issues, esp in winter, and such.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

On 6/18/2024 at 1:33 PM, W199 said:

 

For your 1200 mile trip, assuming its not in the winter time,  with my 300+ mile range, Tesla, I estimate I would stop an average of about every 180 miles for charging. For about 25 minutes, probably 7 total stops. If there was a slow charger, it might be 40 minutes, but I'd just charge a little and drive to the next one.  Plus maybe about 5-10 minutes to drive to/from the charger.   I'd use the charging time to stretch my legs and use the restroom and eat.  Hence, I estimate I would lost 4 hours. Maybe add an extra hour buffer to be safe.  I'd definately need a hotel, but the cost of the hotel would be offset by the significant cost in gas savings, not to mention car maintance like oil changes, etc..),  I'd make it a stop-over too (adding even longer to the trip).  But the total cost of ownership is very hard to compare, so its probably not fair to compare. But I feel I have saved a significant amount money owning the Tesla compared to buying a simalarly priced premium/luxury ICE car, not even including the subsidies.   I do feel there is some risk, and one needs to have a back-up plan should something unexpected happen .. But I have had zero problems nor any my dozen coworkers who have it. My priority is the huge gas savings I am saving and the safety it adds to my commute (due to my bad driving habits). 

 

Yes, there is no doubt the charging will add a lot of extra time, and for many people that won't be acceptable.  My boss at work said if he wanted to stay married, he could not get an EV because that would require a stop on the way to his winter vacation home (since the range is so much less in the winter) which his Wife would not allow.. lol

 

F

I have said this several times over the years. I think hybrid is the wave of the future and one day Hydrogen fuel cell hybrids, once the Hydrogen infrastructure is available. 

 

All 25 camrys are hybrid only.

[Boiler 45,449]

I am going to be dead before there is widespread hydrogen.

 

The only way I could see this working if there is a palletised production system that could say be plugged in and deployed at gas stations.

 

Or even better one you could buy from Home Depot and have at home.

Edited June 20 by Boiler

[Ban Hammer 13,329]

14 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I have said this several times over the years. I think hybrid is the wave of the future and one day Hydrogen fuel cell hybrids, once the Hydrogen infrastructure is available. 

 

All 25 camrys are hybrid only.

the best hydrogen model car will be called the "hindenburg"

[Boiler 45,449]

 

Tiger 1 converted to use Town Gas, they also had versions that used Wood Gas.

 

They were supposed to be just used for training, this driver seems to need more training.

[W199 333]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:13 PM, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I have said this several times over the years. I think hybrid is the wave of the future and one day Hydrogen fuel cell hybrids, once the Hydrogen infrastructure is available. 

 

All 25 camrys are hybrid only.

Hybrid cars defeat a lot of the advantages of the all EV, so IMHO doubt it.  The rhetorical articles that promote that idea are self-serving and a marketing ploy.  But given the lack of charging for those who don't have homes, you might be right. But I think ultimately, the winner will be costs, just like ethernet vs ATM networds.

 

I've been waiting for the hydrogen car, the used vegetable oil car, fusion/nuclear, and now the flying cars. Never say never, but they going to be pretty close to it.