Evidence question

[wazzujoel 63]

17 hours ago, rob554 said:

thanks for the information! :D, I will take out the relationship information and use just my boarding passes, passport stamps, pictures and hotel receipts as my evidence.( Also i have pictures of the boarding passes, is that worse than scanning? or is it just fine)

 

I am happy to hear my post is helping people. 🙂 I think scanning the plane tickets is the best approach because scans are very easy to read, However pictures of the plane tickets are also okay. The important thing is if dates and locations and names are readable. Just remember, you want to make your evidence clear, concise, and easy to follow. The evidence you are supplying should only be evidence that establishes clearly that you met each other in real life, and I would personally only include evidence from one trip. Although copy of boarding passes, photo of passport stamp, hotel receipt, and pictures are sufficient, I personally don't have an issue with providing any potential extra information you might have to establish you met each other. For example, if you two went to a zoo on this trip, have two dated tickets for the zoo during this trip, and have a photo of you two together at the zoo, then this would be excellent evidence. For me I only supplied plane tickets, passport stamp photo, hotel receipt, and photos together because that's all the evidence I really had of the trip. And I received NOA2 without an RFE. 

 

My main recommendation is to avoid suppling evidence of relationship because USCIS does not ask for that. And I would strongly recommend if you have multiple trips that would qualify, pick the best one that you have the most evidence for. No reason to confuse USCIS with multiple trips and timelines. 

[wazzujoel 63]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:25 PM, MonkeyDan said:

YES!! Finally someone who gets it!!  Thank you!!

 

Thank you 😄 I was recently on this large Facebook group "K1 fiance Visa Filers" where I often times helps many people with detailed comments like above. Anyways the Admin of the group (Sabrina) kept telling everyone that they needed to provide evidence of a relationship otherwise they would get an RFE. She was advocating for sending 100's of pages of Whatsapp chat logs and other ridiculous pieces of evidence to "Prove you have a relationship otherwise USCIS will give you a RFE to prove your relationship". I asked her to show me a single RFE from USCIS showing me you needed to "prove you had a relationship". First she shows me a RFE from the embassy asking for extra relationship evidence, and then when I point out that this was not an RFE from USCIS then she provides me with a USCIS RFE for "2 year meet evidence". She then banned me from the group since my advise was contrary to hers. 

 

Anyways, stupid story I know, but just telling it because after that it's nice to have my posts here appreciated 🙂 

[Bh_sarah 942]

I am still waiting for NOA2 but found this thread interesting, wanted to see your opinion on something. I did send proof of bonafide relationship within my K1 petition, as per lawyer's advice. Didn't send 100 pages of WhatsApp conversations, but I did send call logs, and key messages from our chats, such as our first messages ever on a dating website, when we started getting romantic, intention to meet (we couldn't meet at first due to covid restrictions), first I love you's, intention to get marry/form a family, probably 5 pages max. And yes, I included boarding passes, passport stamps, hotel reservations, and pictures of when we finally met in a 3rd country (that was about 2 months before filing, so within the 2 years).

I understand that in theory, USCIS just want to know if you are qualified/eligible for the visa and met all the requirements, but more and more this advice is being given by immigration lawyers and immigration agencies. One of my main reasons to suspect that is the RFE for intention to marry when BOTH beneficiary and petitioner sent separate letters and signed them (so the letters aren't the reason). See the thread below from January. I saw many other pictures of this specific RFE when there isn't any issues with the letters, they really want proof of ongoing relationship, and it's my understanding everyone that gets this RFE showed proof of meeting, so that's not that they are asking for. Also attaching a screenshot of an interesting take from one of most "supreme" members of VJ.

I am not sure if this started now because of covid or because processing times became absurd, or because of the nature of online relationships, but I don't know if I would say only proof of meeting is enough for some USCIS officers, even if yours was approved without anything else apart from it. And sorry that you got banned from the Facebook group, that was childish. One more reason to never join any K1 FB group for me!
 

[wazzujoel 63]

24 minutes ago, Bh_sarah said:

I understand that in theory, USCIS just want to know if you are qualified/eligible for the visa and met all the requirements, but more and more this advice is being given by immigration lawyers and immigration agencies. One of my main reasons to suspect that is the RFE for intention to marry when BOTH beneficiary and petitioner sent separate letters and signed them (so the letters aren't the reason). See the thread below from January. I saw many other pictures of this specific RFE when there isn't any issues with the letters, they really want proof of ongoing relationship, and it's my understanding everyone that gets this RFE showed proof of meeting, so that's not that they are asking for. Also attaching a screenshot of an interesting take from one of most "supreme" members of VJ.
 

 

 

I read through this thread and yes that was an RFE for "Intent to marry" Evidence. Again they are not asking for proof of a relationship, they are asking for proof that you two intend to actually marry. Note that it is very possible to be in a decade old relationship, having dozens of trips yearly to see each other, but not intend to ever really get married. So, what you need to prove to USCIS in this situation is that you really do intend to marry. People who receive this RFE shouldn't get caught up in trying to prove they have a relationship. They listed things on the RFE that could be used for this evidence, but let me give you an example of so anyone reading this can understand the distinction I am making. One of the items you could send for evidence of "intent to marry" is "ongoing communication". Now lets assume two hypothetical communications that I will number for clarity. 

 

1. 10 pages of WhatsApp history where you are discussing the March Madness basketball tournament. This is a topic you both enjoy a lot so every day you are engaging in lots of discussion about what team is going to beat the other. Since you are partners, lets also assume there is an occasional "I love you" thrown in there. 

 

2. 10 pages of WhatsApp history where you are discussing your future wedding. Discussing how much is appropriate to spend on the dress, cake, venue, music. You are talking about friends you want to come to your wedding and who will be the best man. Basically you are talking about your life plans. 

 

Hopefully it's perfectly clear that in these two hypotheticals, #2 is what USCIS is wanting to see. They are not looking for evidence that you have a relationship, they are specifically looking for evidence that you "intend to marry".  My evidence I submitted for "intent to marry" was light. What I included was two signed letters, one from me and one from my partner, that was addressed to USCIS and explained our marriage intent. This was sufficient for the agent that reviewed my case. Here is one of the two signed letters that I provided so you can see how simple it was. I have redacted the names and addresses but kept the coloring the same so hopefully it is still readable. 

 

 

[Bh_sarah 942]

15 minutes ago, wazzujoel said:

 

I read through this thread and yes that was an RFE for "Intent to marry" Evidence. Again they are not asking for proof of a relationship, they are asking for proof that you two intend to actually marry. Note that it is very possible to be in a decade old relationship, having dozens of trips yearly to see each other, but not intend to ever really get married. So, what you need to prove to USCIS in this situation is that you really do intend to marry. People who receive this RFE shouldn't get caught up in trying to prove they have a relationship. They listed things on the RFE that could be used for this evidence, but let me give you an example of so anyone reading this can understand the distinction I am making. One of the items you could send for evidence of "intent to marry" is "ongoing communication". Now lets assume two hypothetical communications that I will number for clarity. 

 

1. 10 pages of WhatsApp history where you are discussing the March Madness basketball tournament. This is a topic you both enjoy a lot so every day you are engaging in lots of discussion about what team is going to beat the other. Since you are partners, lets also assume there is an occasional "I love you" thrown in there. 

 

2. 10 pages of WhatsApp history where you are discussing your future wedding. Discussing how much is appropriate to spend on the dress, cake, venue, music. You are talking about friends you want to come to your wedding and who will be the best man. Basically you are talking about your life plans. 

 

Hopefully it's perfectly clear that in these two hypotheticals, #2 is what USCIS is wanting to see. They are not looking for evidence that you have a relationship, they are specifically looking for evidence that you "intend to marry".  My evidence I submitted for "intent to marry" was light. What I included was two signed letters, one from me and one from my partner, that was addressed to USCIS and explained our marriage intent. This was sufficient for the agent that reviewed my case. Here is one of the two signed letters that I provided so you can see how simple it was. I have redacted the names and addresses but kept the coloring the same so hopefully it is still readable. 

 

 

Thank you. I think I understand your point about the difference between a proof of intent to marry and a proof of relationship, even though "you did not submit any documentary evidence to support your statements" part of the RFE confuses me. And some people do include every tiny bit of useless private information in their files.

My letters of intent to marry were also as simple as yours, one for each of us, signed. That RFE was just very unusual to me due to the fact the letters were sent correctly, but USCIS still needed more proof both parties were still with ongoing plans (maybe because of the processing times?). It's hard to know what they are looking for if sometimes they ask proof apart from what is required, thing we thought only the embassy would be interested in knowing more about.

I still think every case is unique, and some agents even approved cases where only one letter was sent/the couple signed only one letter instead of each their own. I wouldn't include our 2 years of messages to bore any and every agent, but I'm still a bit on the side of front loading your case with a tiny bit more of evidence, especially for online relationships or for high-fraud countries. We were very much into our relationship and with a marriage mindset from the start, but the fact we didn't meet personally for the first 2 years and then got engaged the first time we met in a 3rd country (our families weren't involved at all in this meeting and I know it can all sound a bit naive) made us a bit apprehensive to be fair, so we did include a bit more than USCIS asked for hoping we would avoid an RFE. 

[wazzujoel 63]

42 minutes ago, Bh_sarah said:

I am still waiting for NOA2 but found this thread interesting, wanted to see your opinion on something. I did send proof of bonafide relationship within my K1 petition, as per lawyer's advice. Didn't send 100 pages of WhatsApp conversations, but I did send call logs, and key messages from our chats, such as our first messages ever on a dating website, when we started getting romantic, intention to meet (we couldn't meet at first due to covid restrictions), first I love you's, intention to get marry/form a family, probably 5 pages max. And yes, I included boarding passes, passport stamps, hotel reservations, and pictures of when we finally met in a 3rd country (that was about 2 months before filing, so within the 2 years).

 

Just to be clear - I am not saying that by providing "proof of relationship" that you will receive an RFE. You have to think of this from USCIS's perspective. They have a checklist of things they need to verify for them to give you approval. You application should be clear, and concise on exactly what they are looking for, such that they can give you a quick approval. Let me give an absurd example to prove my point : 

 

Perhaps someone applying starts thinking that passport photo isn't sufficient evidence to prove they are really a US citizen. Maybe they decide they wanted to send USCIS pictures from when they were 8 years old and their family took them on a road trip to Disneyland.... Maybe they include 20 pictures of their diary during that time so USCIS can see they really did go to Disneyland so they must be a US citizen. USCIS is not going to reject or RFE the application because they added this evidence of a family trip to Disneyland. The agent will probably roll their eyes and be slightly annoyed that people don't just follow the instructions. Now if this person decided not to send the passport photo because the "Disney pictures should be proof enough they are a US citizen", well then they are going to receive an RFE. 

 

I absolutely disagree with your immigration lawyers advice, and makes me question their capabilities. I am not saying you will receive an RFE for providing unnecessary information, however my biggest concern would be that you have not overlooked providing the correct evidence that they do require - "Evidence of two year meeting" and "Evidence of marriage Intent" being the two major pieces of evidence.   You want to make the agents job as easy as you can. As I previously said, I saw someone get an RFE for "proving they had a relationship" because the "proof of having met within the last two years" was completely not-obvious. They had provided a dozen different flights, and 4 pages of passport stamps, and lot of whatsapp conversations and yet everything they provided only 1 of the trips was during the correct time period to count. 

 

Be clear, concise, and organized. I highly recommend a cover letter such that you can keep everything organized and clear. 

 

 

[wazzujoel 63]

4 minutes ago, Bh_sarah said:

I still think every case is unique, and some agents even approved cases where only one letter was sent/the couple signed only one letter instead of each their own. I wouldn't include our 2 years of messages to bore any and every agent, but I'm still a bit on the side of front loading your case with a tiny bit more of evidence, especially for online relationships or for high-fraud countries. We were very much into our relationship and with a marriage mindset from the start, but the fact we didn't meet personally for the first 2 years and then got engaged the first time we met in a 3rd country (our families weren't involved at all in this meeting and I know it can all sound a bit naive) made us a bit apprehensive to be fair, so we did include a bit more than USCIS asked for hoping we would avoid an RFE. 

 

Yes you are right that it does come down to the agents. I will even admit the two signed letters I sent were on the light side of evidence of intent to marry. Had they provided me an RFE then I would have followed up with my engagement ring receipt, wedding plans, chat exchange I had with pastor who will be marrying us. Things like that. I am not trying to discourage people from provided additional evidence of "Intent to marry" besides the two signed letters I sent which worked for me. Perhaps you might get one of those agents who want a little more evidence than letters of intent. 

 

I wish you best of luck on your journey. You will probably be okay, don't worry about it. If you do get an RFE though, read it very carefully and make sure you respond back with exactly what they are asking for. 

[Bh_sarah 942]

4 minutes ago, wazzujoel said:

 

Just to be clear - I am not saying that by providing "proof of relationship" that you will receive an RFE. You have to think of this from USCIS's perspective. They have a checklist of things they need to verify for them to give you approval. You application should be clear, and concise on exactly what they are looking for, such that they can give you a quick approval. 

Hi, no problem at all! Really. I appreciate you taking the time to reply in detail too. And that ship has sailed now! haha we sent out petition almost 400 days ago, and at first we were a bit confused and trusted a lawyer. I am still very skeptical and after everything I learned on my own here from experienced members and past filers, he will be a goner pretty soon if he messes up going forward. 

And I'm not claiming it's necessary to include additional evidence, or that you are saying I'm getting a RFE, not at all. Please don't take it like that. This is just my curiosity when I encountered this thread and your message, because even though I understand a lot of people just send huge and useless evidence, I always thought USCIS cared about verifying bonafide relationships as well. This is definitely a great advice for the OP of this topic.
 

 

8 minutes ago, wazzujoel said:

I wish you best of luck on your journey. You will probably be okay, don't worry about it. If you do get an RFE though, read it very carefully and make sure you respond back with exactly what they are asking for. 

And thank you! I do hope even though I sent more than what they asked, that it wasn't too long or confusing, since I carefully selected communications of future plans/marriage and family and of us wanting to meet during the first years but not being able to during covid times (along with the evidence of us meeting 2 years before filing, just to be clear!). Appreciate your answers and I also wish you the best with the rest of your K1 visa (and AOS and all the rest as well) since I remember you from a thread about trying to get your fiancé out of Cuba with urgency – glad it's working out so far!

 

 

[Stook 23]

On 3/15/2023 at 10:59 AM, rob554 said:

I have that too, mightve lost a few but i have the complete ones for two of the trips

If can't find the boarding passes (they're probably in your email), try finding the flight receipts (probably also in your email, or in your records on the airline's website).

Leave out the Discord chats. They really don't care about them.  Chats can easily be forged.

[Stook 23]

On 3/20/2023 at 11:00 AM, wazzujoel said:

 

Thank you 😄 I was recently on this large Facebook group "K1 fiance Visa Filers" where I often times helps many people with detailed comments like above. Anyways the Admin of the group (Sabrina) kept telling everyone that they needed to provide evidence of a relationship otherwise they would get an RFE. She was advocating for sending 100's of pages of Whatsapp chat logs and other ridiculous pieces of evidence to "Prove you have a relationship otherwise USCIS will give you a RFE to prove your relationship". I asked her to show me a single RFE from USCIS showing me you needed to "prove you had a relationship". First she shows me a RFE from the embassy asking for extra relationship evidence, and then when I point out that this was not an RFE from USCIS then she provides me with a USCIS RFE for "2 year meet evidence". She then banned me from the group since my advise was contrary to hers. 

 

Anyways, stupid story I know, but just telling it because after that it's nice to have my posts here appreciated 🙂 

Advice on Facebook AND advice on many "K1 Visa Tips" websites (including those from immigration services and lawyers) often has incorrect, terrible  advice. My advice is always to follow exactly what the USCIS website and the I-129f instructions and Checklist state.

[wazzujoel 63]

10 hours ago, Stook said:

Advice on Facebook AND advice on many "K1 Visa Tips" websites (including those from immigration services and lawyers) often has incorrect, terrible  advice. My advice is always to follow exactly what the USCIS website and the I-129f instructions and Checklist state.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. It's interesting to me how easily it is for "bad advice" to creep into widely followed practices. And I find it even more puzzling when actual immigration lawyers also follow these undocumented "bad advice" practices. Lawyers should really have no excuse. I know they are humans and can make errors too, but you'd think after studying law they have been very keen to following exactly what is being asked by the process and not reaching outside the scope of the instructions. But what do I know, I am not a lawyer... I only watch a lot of Judge Judy lol