Concerns and Trust

[HannahP 119]

I would certainly question why he thinks his values, upbringing, religious tenets about marriage, can be thrown out the window just because he is marrying a western woman.

Now I'm just curious. The way you phrased it makes it sound like most cultural and religious sentiments in the Arabic world are pretty strict and uniform; can an Arabic man have "Western" beliefs?

[ya falaha! 0]

That's ideal but unfortunately many women marrying MENA men don't know the language...not even the tiniest bit of it. How can they fully investigate someone in another country? How can they know the true feelings of the man's family? How do you know that's just a cousin? They marry their cousins. What I'm trying to say is...it's easier said than done (investigating MENA men). Words are easy to say. Ppl will tell you what YOU want to hear.

All you can do is have faith that you're marrying an honest man and put your BS detectors on.

Perhaps a lot of this could be avoided if people really, seriously dig into their husband's family prior to tying the knot. What was his parents' relationship like? Any family members married to foreigners sucessfully? How does he treat his mom, his sisters, his female family members? How much time does he spend with friends? What are his views of spousal relations, equitable? Do learn about the culture, the good and the bad.

Ask questions. Be nosey. I have a few saved that are geared towards a muslim/muslim pairing, but they could always be tweaked.

Questions to ask a prospective marriage partner

100+ questions to ask a prospective spouse

Blissful Marriage

How can I be confident that my husband is not going to turn out to be like those described by some posters here? Because I investigated him, asked questions, was nosey, and I liked what I found out. I wouldn't have married a typical arab, and my husband wouldn't have married a typical american.

Of course, the potential husband should do the same for his wife - scary as it is, I'm turning more and more into my mother each day.

this is a great post! i firmly believe in this as well. i wish all men and women who were considering marriage would ask more questions, be more nosey, be observant, and spend more time with their SO. spend more time with their SO and their SO's family. all of the questions you posted were spot on. i also wanted to be confident my fiance would not turn out like some described here. of course nothing is guaranteed but i also investigated him, asked loads of questions (i made him fill out a questionaire once!), i observed his interactions with his family and friends. his hobbies and career choice. like you said, i couldn't have married a typical arab, and my fiance couldn't have married a typical american nor a typical arab girl. i think we both have a good balance and there is a very high posibility of it working out.

and i also read that "blissful marriage book" and other islamic marriage books before i was engaged. definitely a good idea for an american and/or an american non-muslim woman to read!

[swa 0]

hi all.....well i,m arabic man&will marry USC very soon, i,ll try to use my poor english as much i can to explain my opinion,i read alot here about having mena b/f or husbands& so,,,alot asking how2be sure if that man really love them or just useing them4 green card,it,s not that easy i know but it,s not that hard2?!there r many signals or questions u can see or ask like why that 20 or 30 something will marry me i,m40 or over???while in his country will be a shame4 him2do so& how can he accept that i have kids& said it,s ok while if his sister has kids fome an ex husband it will be very hard4 her to get married again.& no single man in any mena country will marry a woman with kids(arabic girls here can confirm this) something else he look very nice looking while i,m that****** so why he want me????also i note most of u guys here pay almost all d visa cost!!!why no rich mena men here??also i note that alot of them jobless or having very poor jobs.well we can say they look4better life& nothing wrong with that. sadly d only way for poor men to do so is to find an usa or E U GIRLS& MARRY THEM. this is the fact that must dont want to see??something else really cant understand it how some1 ask u to marry him or her while u never meet or met 4 few days or weeks???or just spent a holiday2gether....have something funy about friends& family members from my mena country alot of them asking me2 find a girls4 them so they can come here lol by d way i left mena 22 years ago

[peezey 0]

I would certainly question why he thinks his values, upbringing, religious tenets about marriage, can be thrown out the window just because he is marrying a western woman.

Now I'm just curious. The way you phrased it makes it sound like most cultural and religious sentiments in the Arabic world are pretty strict and uniform; can an Arabic man have "Western" beliefs?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but considering most of these men haven't left their city or town, let alone their country, and considering MENA countries are insular and most have a national religion, and while there might be class differences and therefore different saturation of culture/religion, it's still very uniform in terms of expectations for marriage and family.

[sereia 0]

so is that what you did, swa?

Edited July 20, 2007 by sereia

[swa 0]

[quote name='sereia' i didnt did it4 that reson& the country i came from is better than usa but MY CASE very complacated& strange lol,,,,,by d way i think u r a chef no???

[sereia 0]

i'm sure you're right swa. unfortunately we've all read the same thing countless times. i don't know your case and i'm not pointing fingers. i was just poking fun.

Edited July 20, 2007 by sereia

[Nasturtium 500]

First of all I want to give hugs to Jackie again! (and if you really knew how much and to what extent I HATE touching, then you'd understand that is serious ) I'm also going to say that the following is based on the thread and NOT Jackie or anyone in particular.

I agree with the sentiment that many people, on both sides, don't know what they're getting into even if the intentions were genuine. Isn't it that way even in non-cross-cultural relationships? Look at our divorce rate as it is!

I also agree with being nosey. Don't just ask your husband or his friends/family. Find other people who know him but aren't close to him. Find other people from the area who know the family or tribe. ASK. And never settle for "it's enough." I still ask people about my husband and his family. Is there a line of being too suspicious? I don't think there is before marriage. What there is is called "tact."

I don't think you should marry and then just accept things as blissful.. but at the same time don't look for holes once you marry-- because at any rate, you shouldn't marry until you are 100% sure this person is for you IMO. No "oh, this will work itself out" cr@p. I will admit to even contacting a woman who did an ethnography on my husband's village and asking her questions about the village (and thus the family) in order to check on some things as well as check OUT some stories.

I have a friend (Egyptian-American) who worked in the mosque doing counseling/programming/sunday school. She told me over and over and over this is the story she saw: Arab man marries American woman who is usually older. She converts to Islam. he divorces her or takes another wife (or both) after a period of time (after he gets a greencard or citizenship) and after she has converted to Islam. She comes and looks for help and is basically turned down in the community. He feels fine about it all and states that he "led someone to Islam" and feels guiltless about it all. After all, he scored one for Allah!

I'm not saying that this is how it is per se, but I have seen it. She had seen it. Others have seen it. This is yet another dimension not talked about much.

Men (or women) who use others are not of a certain race, religion, or creed. And most have "justification" in their own minds. It's just a fact of life.

I think it's important to study your potential SO's life, culture and religion. You need to see where your So is, where your SO could be (potential for religious fervor and fanatacism, cultural strictness or lax, etc.), and where your SO feels is ideal. You need to judge this on many levels and it takes TIME.

Then you need to see if you can live with this and where is your breaking point. You need to figure this out. Why? We have it all figured out in the back of our minds regarding our own cultures and religions. Think about it. What would you accept from your American SO? Are you content to be a football wife? Have your husband out at a bar every night? Have him decide you should do 1 Corinthians 11:3-6; 13-16, if he's Christian? We have limits in our own culture and you need to have them and STATE THEM in regards to his or hers.

Do MENA men mostly marry for children and care? In my experience? Yes. Heck even my own husband stated he did not marry me for love and that love was nice and all but not what mattered. He said he did love me.. but didn't marry me for love or sex. And he durn well knew i had no money. He listed out the characteristics he married me for very concisely. And you had better believe care and family-having were two of them. Marriage is a business, religious, and social deal in a lot of places. And I received the business proposal. Backed by love? yes. But. It was talked about very methodically. He was not letting feelings get in the way of that.

And people think it's awful and whatever, but I openly admit his family is not happy with this idea for a few reasons:

1. He quit a high-staus job for what? This crappy job he has?

2. He married someone who is not a cousin.

3. Who is not arab.

4. And lastly is not Muslim.

And he told me what will fix this and what HAS to occur before we move back to Jordan.

1. Kids

2. Money

3. Education (PhD).

He's pretty open about how things are over there and he lays it out like JP or the OP did. i know his limits. he knows mine. I know the advantages and disadvantages of being married to me and honestly, once the "what? you didn't looooooooove me so much you married me-- you married me for characteristics I posess?!?!" wore off, and I was looking clearly, I saw he did the right thing. And being American wasn't one of the characteristics, but you bet your booty it helped with certain, specific goals. Goals like being able to make some money to start a business... in jordan jobs are tight and don't pay enough. Goals like being able to hide out from the wrath of the family about not marrying a cousin. Being able to not divide his political affiliations in his tribe by marrying one of them. It's not my American-ness per se that helps.. but being from another country in general! Heck being able to get married at all! He couldn't have an Arab girl-- he had no money! He can't buy the apartment, the furniture, etc.

Our relationship was kind of odd. I was difficult to use and slowed down any chances he had of coming to the US. Instead of coming the way he could have through a work exchange between universities, I made him wait for a greencard. We are in the same field, and it is a career-risking move to marry me. We have the same education. We know a lot of the same people-- both Jordanian AND American. Blah, blah, blah, bought me a pretty bracelet, met in person, whatever.

He actually lost a lot for me. But at the same time I know he hopes to gain back what he lost. So it's a gamble.

Like people have said: life's a gamble. I'm up for it. But I did my checking first. I don't take love into account anymore and I reccomend that others disregard this and look at their relationships the same way. My husband is very much Machiavellian up to a point. And when is enough too much? It is something for us to all think about. But don't live your life in doubt. Ponder, search but don't dwell. It does no good.

And as mentioned-- no one is immune to this. Even if you were Arabian, even if you were Muslim, even if you had everything.. who is to say he would keep you? Or be true to only you?

We each have to make our own judgement calls, and in the end there is only so much you can do-- same as any other relationship.

[swa 0]

[quote name='sereia' it,s ok ,i really feel sorry4 many here cos there cases looking clearly just4 green card& they think it,s love,

[sereia 0]

julianna!

[MrsAmera 41]

I think this is all very valid and interesting points that have been made. But I want to add that not all Middle Eastern men are raisied in the environment you described (as JP pointed out). Sure I know this could happen but I'm going to use my husband as an example. His mother was his fathers second wife (she was previously married and had 6 kids!) His dad married her and took care of the kids and they had two more children. Both wives lived in seperate houses, Youssef has told me his father never hit his mother and always took care of all of the children equally. They had little contact with the other wife and so there was limited jealous and problems on that front. All of my husbands sisters are older and were married when he was a young teenager and older - he has seen how their husbands have treated them and gotten into fistfights with 1 of them specifically over how they treated his sisters. I know with confidence he would never ever raise his hand to me or any other woman. His brother lives in the US with his Moroccan wife, and they have told me that of all of the family Youssef was the only one who never wanted to live here, he even tells me that. He really doesn't care about living in America it means little to him. I am 99% sure he never used me for a green card. Of course there is always a slight inkling that might be the case but it's very rare. I just think it's unfair to paint all ME men or even all Jordanian men at this mentality

[Nasturtium 500]

I just wanted to add: I agree and touched on this point as well-- judge them by their own standards to start. If he's tossing his own beliefs out the window (or acting culturally unacceptable) then there is likely a problem.

[Marry American 0]

Huh.

As an outsider who married a Canadian ("Oh, he's just Canadian. That's practically American anyway!") but trolls through the other forums from time to time...it's been my observation that there are plenty of jerks in all countries. Surprise!

No, but really. Why argue the *Arabic* mindset when MENA is just another high-fraud consulate? How many American men get left by their Russian or Chinese wives? Or American women by their Nigerian husbands? (Or for that matter -- US citizens by their Canadian spouses?) You just don't hear about the failed relationships much on here - shame, I guess - or you hear about them second-hand in the "I know someone who..." game.

When I first joined visajourney, what shocked *me* was the incredibly short duration between meeting/engagement/marriage. Of all nationalities. I couldn't fathom meeting someone online, chatting for a few months, visiting them in person for a few days, and then getting engaged/married! My own experience was so different and so normal compared to the experiences of most couples on here.

So you read about the failures. Or you speculate about some of the crazier stories on here, right? You troll through the high-fraud forums (MENA only being one of them!) and notice a lot of similarities. I'll admit that, as an outsider with a fiance from an industrialized country and two years of living together already behind us, I've probably passed too many judgements on relationships that I simply couldn't fathom. Why would anyone think something like that would work?

But the longer I stay on here, the harder it becomes to untangle the fraudulant from the usual problems that any international relationship is going to face. So there's a lot of generalization (which may or may not be true) about the *Arabic* culture and *Arabic* men; but why single that out as the negative factor? Culture may play a part of it, but you guys also have to deal with a high-fraud consulate (although I liked the "going to church to find a Christian partner" analogy & think it very relevant), the usual hardships of an international relationship, and the profound culture shock that your spouse is probably experiencing. How do you untangle what is what?

You can't. I am in agreement with you. I am also married to a mena men. I believe in our relationship just like everyone else does. Even still often times I wonder why American women go that route. I know I could have made other choices. So if my husband ever leaves, I will say I should have married one of my American choices instead of being used for a green card (if that should ever be the case). What else can you say?

People will have this discussion all over the internet and online all day and evening long. I piss my husband off when I say this, but most men from poor countries marry to come to America and get the green card. Women should not be soooo gullible. In the event it does not work out for one reason or the other-do not be surprised! I know I won't.

[lasso 0]

WOW

RAHMA,

Your a smart women your right let me explain something that both men had that I married and to watch out for.

They both did not have any american friends at all they both always complained about americans jewish people ect...

They both always longed for back home and wanted to go back home one day.

They both where very jealouse men. they both did not like when I laughed out loud ect...

And they both wanted to protect thier family over me.

I came second thier family was first then me.

I am currently talking with a palestinian man that puts women before his mother and would never go back home.

LOOK FOR THE SIGNS

[peezey 0]

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to have a better life, otherwise known as marrying for a green card. It's how they plan to do it that becomes a problem. If they have every intention to make the marriage work, what's the big deal? We all marry for reasons other than love. But if they are planning this as a short term thing so they can get their freedom and leave their wife, well then, that's true fraud. I'm not sure how many actually go into it with this mind set, but at the same time, western society has such a flippant attitude about divorce, and these guys know that, so is going into a marriage hoping it will work, but knowing there is always a way out fraud or just immaturity/irresponsibility? I think anyone going into a marriage with one foot always out the door will never find themselves successful in a marriage.