Concerns and Trust

[mybackpages 0]

Huh.

As an outsider who married a Canadian ("Oh, he's just Canadian. That's practically American anyway!") but trolls through the other forums from time to time...it's been my observation that there are plenty of jerks in all countries. Surprise!

Hannah - thanks for dropping by and being a voice of reason. You stated so much better what I was trying to say, but I got bogged down in the arguement of culture.

[mybackpages 0]

Huh.

As an outsider who married a Canadian ("Oh, he's just Canadian. That's practically American anyway!") but trolls through the other forums from time to time...it's been my observation that there are plenty of jerks in all countries. Surprise!

Hannah - thanks for dropping by and being a voice of reason. You stated so much better what I was trying to say, but I got bogged down in the arguement of culture.

And I will just add, that there is a pattern common to many relationships here (not exclusively MENA although I do see it here because there is so much talk here) that may doom the relationship from the start. You've touched on some of those- quick engagements, very little time in real life together. I think many men and women come into these relationships lacking. it's not just an internet relationship thing- many couples with same nationalities get themselves into marriages that do not work.

[AInfante-Saraireh 0]

LOL LOL LOL

Family is wonderfull but ARAB or American or any culture live farther and enjoy the visits. It is a rare thing to have one big happy family.

I also wanted to open another can of worms?

This is not intended as a racial thing but would you not think that most cultures do better if they marry thier own kind?

We are talking same music food family religion ect...

Everyone hates to say those words because we live here in a big melting pot but if you do marry your own kind it is less likely that you will divorce.

Look at the world as a whole in other countries the divorce rate is low. Maybe Arabs no something we don't

This whole topic was sensitive and by no means am I saying these men don't love thier wife. I beleive in my heart mine loved me but he thought with his head not his heart. And he married someone who would bare his children not stop who would never leave him and would love him no matter what.

It is almost a 100% garuanty that if you marry your own kind it will work. They take a very big risk marrying one of us, and alot of flak from family.

I mean you go to america to make money and your family is expecting once you make it to the top you come back build a huge home and marry an arab girl.

Back in the middle east a wedding is thier whole life and foundation. that is what they live for!

We as americans look forward to bigger better house,car and vacation.

All they have is a wedding no matter what the income one day they will celabrate a wedding.

For the mother her sons wedding is more important then her wedding day.

These women are kept in the house for the most part but on a wedding day they can dance have fun go shopping for thier dress. I mean this is a big event the biggest in a man or womens life.

Like I said before it took me a very long time to realize other cultures do not think like us we are different.

We will marry a women who has been touched or even has kids and be proud to call her our wife.

We marry who we want who the hell cares what our family says and if our mother dont like our wife to bad our kids and wife come first.

In middle east they will not marry a women who has been touched or has kids and the mother has a big influence on who the son marries and you better beleive his mother comes first, It is islam.

I am not bashing any of it some of it I personally think is good but not when it happen to me.

I love it that my own son babies me.

Please understand when you marry someone from another culture that is why it is called culture.

I lived for many years hearing "back home back home my family I miss them back home we eat sleep ect like this"

I also have many friends who are middles eastern and I respect them and thier beliefs they are good family men.

This is a good point, and being that I knew the culture way before I married my husband, a lot of truth holds in what you just stated above.

[Jenn! 918]

Hmmmm, anyone else reminded of West Side Story???

"A boy like that will give you sorrow,

You'll meet another boy tomorrow,

One of your own kind,

Stick to your own kind! "

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Perhaps a lot of this could be avoided if people really, seriously dig into their husband's family prior to tying the knot. What was his parents' relationship like? Any family members married to foreigners sucessfully? How does he treat his mom, his sisters, his female family members? How much time does he spend with friends? What are his views of spousal relations, equitable? Do learn about the culture, the good and the bad.

Ask questions. Be nosey. I have a few saved that are geared towards a muslim/muslim pairing, but they could always be tweaked.

Questions to ask a prospective marriage partner

100+ questions to ask a prospective spouse

Blissful Marriage

How can I be confident that my husband is not going to turn out to be like those described by some posters here? Because I investigated him, asked questions, was nosey, and I liked what I found out. I wouldn't have married a typical arab, and my husband wouldn't have married a typical american.

Of course, the potential husband should do the same for his wife - scary as it is, I'm turning more and more into my mother each day.

[mybackpages 0]

Hmmmm, anyone else reminded of West Side Story???

"A boy like that will give you sorrow,

You'll meet another boy tomorrow,

One of your own kind,

Stick to your own kind! "

snap...snap...jets.....I love this movie

[AInfante-Saraireh 0]

LOLLOLLOL Good one on the West Side Story!

[HannahP 119]

Huh.

As an outsider who married a Canadian ("Oh, he's just Canadian. That's practically American anyway!") but trolls through the other forums from time to time...it's been my observation that there are plenty of jerks in all countries. Surprise!

Hannah - thanks for dropping by and being a voice of reason. You stated so much better what I was trying to say, but I got bogged down in the arguement of culture.

And I will just add, that there is a pattern common to many relationships here (not exclusively MENA although I do see it here because there is so much talk here) that may doom the relationship from the start. You've touched on some of those- quick engagements, very little time in real life together. I think many men and women come into these relationships lacking. it's not just an internet relationship thing- many couples with same nationalities get themselves into marriages that do not work.

This is pretty much what I was trying to get at!

I see it a lot in my friends, so it's not just an international/internet thing, not at all. Being in my early twenties -- a lot of my friends are shacking up, getting married, etc. And all the ####### I get for doing just the opposite, going into a committed long-term relationship at such a young age and then getting married. ("Not enough life experience!") So much of it is just covering your ears from the naysayers and barreling forward, although I suspect that's what gets a lot of relationships in trouble to begin with!

But the short engagements, not really knowing each other in real life (even those who stay with the SO for a few months -- I vacationed with my boy in Canada for months, but setting up a house with him for two years was a different beast entirely), uprooting at least one partner from friends/family/culture...are all almost universal factors in VJ relationships.

The fact that engagement and marriage are *required* aspects of the immigration process -- we think of marriage as being sacred and forever, but the harsh reality is that marriage in a long-distance relationship is just a stepping stone. Distance, as well as governmental regulations, retards the whole dating process for so many of us. We're getting married at a point when a "normal" couple might consider moving in together or even simply becoming an exclusive couple. So you can't really apply traditional concepts of dating and marriage to this board, which is what I think many people (especially outsiders) tend to do...

[peezey 0]

Huh.

As an outsider who married a Canadian ("Oh, he's just Canadian. That's practically American anyway!") but trolls through the other forums from time to time...it's been my observation that there are plenty of jerks in all countries. Surprise!

Hannah - thanks for dropping by and being a voice of reason. You stated so much better what I was trying to say, but I got bogged down in the arguement of culture.

And I will just add, that there is a pattern common to many relationships here (not exclusively MENA although I do see it here because there is so much talk here) that may doom the relationship from the start. You've touched on some of those- quick engagements, very little time in real life together. I think many men and women come into these relationships lacking. it's not just an internet relationship thing- many couples with same nationalities get themselves into marriages that do not work.

This is pretty much what I was trying to get at!

I see it a lot in my friends, so it's not just an international/internet thing, not at all. Being in my early twenties -- a lot of my friends are shacking up, getting married, etc. And all the ####### I get for doing just the opposite, going into a committed long-term relationship at such a young age and then getting married. ("Not enough life experience!") So much of it is just covering your ears from the naysayers and barreling forward, although I suspect that's what gets a lot of relationships in trouble to begin with!

But the short engagements, not really knowing each other in real life (even those who stay with the SO for a few months -- I vacationed with my boy in Canada for months, but setting up a house with him for two years was a different beast entirely), uprooting at least one partner from friends/family/culture...are all almost universal factors in VJ relationships.

The fact that engagement and marriage are *required* aspects of the immigration process -- we think of marriage as being sacred and forever, but the harsh reality is that marriage in a long-distance relationship is just a stepping stone. Distance, as well as governmental regulations, retards the whole dating process for so many of us. We're getting married at a point when a "normal" couple might consider moving in together or even simply becoming an exclusive couple. So you can't really apply traditional concepts of dating and marriage to this board, which is what I think many people (especially outsiders) tend to do...

While I agree with you personally about this process because I'm from the west and dating is normal to us, this kind of reality just doesn't hold water when we are talking about MENA men for whom dating is not a reality where they come from (or asian women or most women outside Europe, CA, US). So something else happens here, and I'm certain our culture of divorce doesn't help matters, but a man who wouldn't have dated his wife-to-be back home, yet wouldn't divorce her as a normal way out of a difficult marriage (however that is defined), either, is so easily leaving his wife here. Has he always had a plan in the back of his mind? Who knows? But the fact remains, he is not coming to the marriage in any way the same he would come to a marriage with a MENA woman, and he is not participating in his marriage the same way either if he leaves just because he can because he is here.

[lasso 0]

oh no i don't want to marry again.

i am quite happy with my family and l love my kids

i do like sometime to hang around which is really bad but

i donot look for another marriage.

I have a plan to go for vacation to see family next week and then they will visit here for some vacation in Milan.

You asked me do i like living in Milan yes of course i am enjoying as i am kearning Italian and in a new culture to understand

the beautiful country of Italy.

wish you a happy weekend and keep in touch

aman

The above email was sent to me from a middle eastern man I met online he is now living in Italy. We had be talking back and forth for sometime I met him on a dating website. So he asked me if I had a boyfriend and when he asked me that I thought it was strange because if I had a boyfriend I would not be on a dating website.

Anyway then I thought I might as well as him if he was married or looking for marriage and the above email was his response.

He has a family back home but here on a dating website he is in Italy but I have a strong feeling he wants to come to the USA.

[HannahP 119]

But the fact remains, he is not coming to the marriage in any way the same he would come to a marriage with a MENA woman, and he is not participating in his marriage the same way either if he leaves just because he can because he is here.

That's true, and that's not something that I've had to deal with in my relationship and thus not something I've put a lot of thought in to.

Is it "fair" to hold him to the same standards that he would be held to in his country of origin? (Picking and choosing what is convient to you is very...Western in itself. Religion, et al.) Would *you* personally consider his non-adherence to traditional marriage customs to be fraudulent in itself?

[sara535 15]

I am just uncomfortable with all the generalizations going on. sure, some of them may be accurate enough in their own way but there are as many different reasons and rationales for choices in marriage partners as there are people in the world.

as far as knowing each other a long time and dating and living together, thats a very recent concept in the world. My grandparents knew each other for about 2 months before they got married on the eve of my grandfathers deployment overseas during WWII. they then spent almost 3 years communicating solely by letter (no webcams, no cellphones) with a couple of home leaves in the middle (enough to conceive my mom!). When my grandfather returned they were still almost strangers celebrating their daughters first birthday and their third anniversary. They went on to be married almost 60 years, but their story is hardly unique, my grandmother was one among thousands and thousands of 'war brides'. Most of those marriages worked, but my guess is that its was because of the huge stigma of divorce at the time, which is also why I would argue so many marriages in MENA stay intact. Not because either party is happy, in fact I saw and heard of several that were downright miserable if not abusive, but because it is SO socially unacceptable to divorce.

[peezey 0]

But the fact remains, he is not coming to the marriage in any way the same he would come to a marriage with a MENA woman, and he is not participating in his marriage the same way either if he leaves just because he can because he is here.

That's true, and that's not something that I've had to deal with in my relationship and thus not something I've put a lot of thought in to.

Is it "fair" to hold him to the same standards that he would be held to in his country of origin? (Picking and choosing what is convient to you is very...Western in itself. Religion, et al.) Would *you* personally consider his non-adherence to traditional marriage customs to be fraudulent in itself?

It adds to the complexity of the situation and serves to highlight things when you are going into this kind of marriage. I'm certainly not saying it can't happen, and can't be successful, but you have to be willing to ask yourself things like, he would never "date" online or otherwise, a MENA woman, what does this mean about me? The same goes for American women who wouldn't marry an American guy after 2 weeks online. So yes, I think you can hold a man to the standards he would be held to back home. It's how he was raised, it's ingrained in the culture. I would certainly question why he thinks his values, upbringing, religious tenets about marriage, can be thrown out the window just because he is marrying a western woman.

[sereia 0]

Perhaps a lot of this could be avoided if people really, seriously dig into their husband's family prior to tying the knot. What was his parents' relationship like? Any family members married to foreigners sucessfully? How does he treat his mom, his sisters, his female family members? How much time does he spend with friends? What are his views of spousal relations, equitable? Do learn about the culture, the good and the bad.

Ask questions. Be nosey. I have a few saved that are geared towards a muslim/muslim pairing, but they could always be tweaked.

Questions to ask a prospective marriage partner

100+ questions to ask a prospective spouse

Blissful Marriage

How can I be confident that my husband is not going to turn out to be like those described by some posters here? Because I investigated him, asked questions, was nosey, and I liked what I found out. I wouldn't have married a typical arab, and my husband wouldn't have married a typical american.

Of course, the potential husband should do the same for his wife - scary as it is, I'm turning more and more into my mother each day.

this is a great post! i firmly believe in this as well. i wish all men and women who were considering marriage would ask more questions, be more nosey, be observant, and spend more time with their SO. spend more time with their SO and their SO's family. all of the questions you posted were spot on. i also wanted to be confident my fiance would not turn out like some described here. of course nothing is guaranteed but i also investigated him, asked loads of questions (i made him fill out a questionaire once!), i observed his interactions with his family and friends. his hobbies and career choice. like you said, i couldn't have married a typical arab, and my fiance couldn't have married a typical american nor a typical arab girl. i think we both have a good balance and there is a very high posibility of it working out.

and i also read that "blissful marriage book" and other islamic marriage books before i was engaged. definitely a good idea for an american and/or an american non-muslim woman to read!

[mybackpages 0]

But the fact remains, he is not coming to the marriage in any way the same he would come to a marriage with a MENA woman, and he is not participating in his marriage the same way either if he leaves just because he can because he is here.

That's true, and that's not something that I've had to deal with in my relationship and thus not something I've put a lot of thought in to.

Is it "fair" to hold him to the same standards that he would be held to in his country of origin? (Picking and choosing what is convient to you is very...Western in itself. Religion, et al.) Would *you* personally consider his non-adherence to traditional marriage customs to be fraudulent in itself?

It adds to the complexity of the situation and serves to highlight things when you are going into this kind of marriage. I'm certainly not saying it can't happen, and can't be successful, but you have to be willing to ask yourself things like, he would never "date" online or otherwise, a MENA woman, what does this mean about me? The same goes for American women who wouldn't marry an American guy after 2 weeks online. So yes, I think you can hold a man to the standards he would be held to back home. It's how he was raised, it's ingrained in the culture. I would certainly question why he thinks his values, upbringing, religious tenets about marriage, can be thrown out the window just because he is marrying a western woman.

Peezy, this is so insightful and wise on so many levels. I only wish I knew how to begin articulating how this contradicts so much of what we see here on VJ and how it is at root of the problems we are discussing.