Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites

[pedroh 21]

Show me where every slave, that 1.5% of Americans owned, was whipped and tortured.

So you think that being a slave, as long as you were not being whipped and tortured, couldn't have been so bad? Are you for real?

Is being restrained the same as being bashed? apparently so.

First of all no one in this generation of Americans has been or is a slave, in America, therefore no one knows what it felt like. So don't act like you do.

dude you don't need to be tortured or bashed to not have dignity, the fact of being a SLave of somebody its itself degrading.. comparing a human to a piece of property, even if 'well treated', carries no dignity at all

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

A South African is nothing like an poor tri-hard American black guy. So don't even try to compare the two.

Actually I agree with you there. I don't think they are much the same at all.

But then again I didn't bring South Africa into the mix. Nor did I say:

Plus look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them. No wait that is racist. That is reality. Fact: Per Capita South Africa now has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault.

Again... please explain why South Africa "has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault". Clearly you have an opinion....

We go from inner city blacks in the US to slavery to African colonial republics. Why mention it in relation to this topic? What does it have to do with anything except to draw differences between blacks, whites and other ethnicities?

Edited July 20, 2007 by Number 6

[Heracles 417]

You brought South Africa into the mix.

I was responding to a comment.

Just curious?

If slavery didn't exsist where would they be now? Dying of AIDs and malnutrition in Africa?

That's one of those questions you're not supposed to ask

You also went on to relativise slavery by pointing out (quite aggressively) that some slaves were treated decently - which might lead some to to the conclusion that its a justification of the original policy. Revisionist history at work - its hard to imagine an 'average' slave experience, but it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that the 'bad days' outweighed the good.

So what if your master is a kindly old Mr Kipling type - do you honestly expect him to remain so if you flat out refused to turn up for work in the morning?

Actually my ancestors where slaves for over 375 years and where freed roughly 34 years prior to black Americans. Yet you are making it out as if I am some ignorant fool on slavery. Maybe you sir should have a read up on the conditions under the ottoman empire before basically accusing me of playing down slavery.

Again... please explain why South Africa "has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault". Clearly you have an opinion....

We go from inner city blacks in the US to slavery to African colonial republics. Why mention it in relation to this topic? What does it have to do with anything except to draw differences between blacks, whites and other ethnicities?

So you are denying those facts? or am I making them up??

[mawilson 2,133]

dude you don't need to be tortured or bashed to not have dignity, the fact of being a SLave of somebody its itself degrading.. comparing a human to a piece of property, even if 'well treated', carries no dignity at all

I'm not sure. If you were told since the day you were born that the color of your

skin makes you inferior to white people, wouldn't you believe it yourself after a while?

And if you believed that, wouldn't you also believe that there's nothing wrong with

your being someone else's property?

[Heracles 417]

In South Africa you will find that there is a huge seperation between rich and poor - the poor being mostly black. This is NOT because of their skin color or their culture, but because they were forced into this poverty by the government of their own country. This is very similar to what happened to African Americans in the USA. Its not just slavery that have held african americans back, its the laws that were around until 1965. And you may try to disagree with me, but discrimination is still around, infact, your living proof.

I have lots of friends from actual south Africa back home so I do not need to be educated on it.

Does slavery and segregation give someone the right to murder and assault other people? My South African friends who fled Africa in fear of their lives seem to think not.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You brought South Africa into the mix.

I was responding to a comment.

Just curious?

If slavery didn't exsist where would they be now? Dying of AIDs and malnutrition in Africa?

That's one of those questions you're not supposed to ask

You also went on to relativise slavery by pointing out (quite aggressively) that some slaves were treated decently - which might lead some to to the conclusion that its a justification of the original policy. Revisionist history at work - its hard to imagine an 'average' slave experience, but it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that the 'bad days' outweighed the good.

So what if your master is a kindly old Mr Kipling type - do you honestly expect him to remain so if you flat out refused to turn up for work in the morning?

Actually my ancestors where slaves for over 375 years and where freed roughly 34 years prior to black Americans. Yet you are making it out as if I am some ignorant fool on slavery. Maybe you sir should have a read up on the conditions under the ottoman empire before basically accusing me of playing down slavery.

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

BTW - What does the Ottoman Empire have to do with this topic? You seem to like throwing that in now and again across various topics - I'm not sure I see the connection. They kept and traded slaves - sure. In the 16th Century the Barbary Pirates prowled the Mediterranean and coasts of Europe for many years, capturing and selling slaves. Spain did much the same thing (only they used convicts) to man the rowers benches on their galleys.

What relationship does the high crime rate in South Africa have with the propensity of Black Americans to be involved with crime or in jail for it?

[Heracles 417]

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

BTW - What does the Ottoman Empire have to do with this topic? You seem to like throwing that in now and again across various topics - I'm not sure I see the connection. They kept and traded slaves - sure. In the 16th Century the Barbary Pirates prowled the Mediterranean and coasts of Europe for many years, capturing and selling slaves. Spain did much the same thing (only they used convicts) to man the rowers benches on their galleys.

What relationship does the high crime rate in South Africa have with the propensity of Black Americans to be involved with crime or in jail for it?

So you can discuss slavery because you have read some book/s yet my ancestors opinion from the 1800's, only 34 years prior to black American slavery ending, is invalid..

There is no relationship between the two. Open your eyes and read what it was written in response too; which was a comment stating that if they had not been brought to America as slaves, they would have been dying in Africa. Called a sub-topic.

The OP states that "Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites" which you seem to blame on the other factors rather than the perpetrators.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Again... please explain why South Africa "has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault". Clearly you have an opinion....

We go from inner city blacks in the US to slavery to African colonial republics. Why mention it in relation to this topic? What does it have to do with anything except to draw differences between blacks, whites and other ethnicities?

So you are denying those facts? or am I making them up??

I'm not denying anything. I'm just asking you what relationship you see between the experience of South African Vs. US Blacks, and the crime rates and jail populations of those countries. As far as the US goes you mentioned hip-hop culture being something of a causative factor when you said:

...Whereas in other American cultures hip-cop and rapping is seen as the only way to success; therefore education and attendance at school means little. Cultural differences.

Cultural differences indeed. But if SA culture is nothing like US hip-hop culture, what's the explanation?

[Heracles 417]

I'm not denying anything. I'm just asking you what relationship you see between the experience of South African Vs. US Blacks, and the crime rates and jail populations of those countries. As far as the US goes you mentioned hip-hop culture being something of a causative factor when you said:

Cultural differences indeed. But if SA culture is nothing like US hip-hop culture, what's the explanation?

Refer to the previous post. There is no relationship. It was a sub-topic.

I do not know much about the economic and cultural conditions in South Africa so I cannot comment on it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So you can discuss slavery because you have read some book/s yet my ancestors opinion from the 1800's, only 34 years prior to black American slavery ending, is invalid..

Actually I said that - your ancestors experience which was real for them is fiction for you - as far as imagining their situation. Same goes with any reading of history.

But by all means - please share your ancestors 'positive' slavery experience.

There is no relationship between the two. Open you eyes and read what it was written in response too and that was a comment stating that if they had not been brought to America as slaves, they would have been dying in Africa. Called a sub-topics.

Sure. But why? Why would you say "..look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them." African people can't do anything but 'screw up' anything you give them?

The OP states that "Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites" which you seem to blame on the other factors rather than the perpetrators.

I do?

Its not rocket science to draw parallels between poverty and crime. They have always been related IMO. If anything this just shows that its a national problem - and that no one area yet has a handle on combatting the root cause.

Combating poverty and illiteracy is a worthy cause, but at the same time, it doesn't mean that

we shouldn't be locking up African American criminals just because they exceed some ratio.

Of course not. Crime is crime after all.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Number 6

[Ban Hammer 13,678]

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

and that pretty much sums up the entire slavery arguement in this thread, eh?

[Heracles 417]

Sure. But why? Why would you say "..look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them." African people can't do anything but 'screw up' anything you give them?

Okay then. I am not the one turning race into an issue but if you want to go down that road, lets do it. Show me all of the ex "white man" controlled African nations which are now prospering. Nations that are now under someone else's controll. Like Dafur..

The same people who call someone Caucasian a racist seem to turn a blind eye on stuff like the following..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/456363/khall..._the_white_man/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAg_5tL4gY

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

and that pretty much sums up the entire slavery arguement in this thread, eh?

Certainly - in the sense that hearing a second-hand story (through whatever medium) doesn't convey the emotional experience of the people involved.

Take the Holocaust, for instance - everyone likes to throw around figures and death tolls, but when you look at it on a page or hear it on TV its nothing more than a bare statistic. Without being able to fully appreciate that those numbers relate to real people its hard to form an emotional connection to it or to the people involved (ever seen people break down at the Auschwitz memorial?) There's something to be said for 'tangible history'.

Similiarly while I can't imagine being tortured, I can go to the London Dungeon or Tower of London, see the torture engines and imagine that being incarcerated there in the middle-ages wouldn't have been a pleasant experience.

[Ban Hammer 13,678]

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

and that pretty much sums up the entire slavery arguement in this thread, eh?

Certainly - in the sense that hearing a second-hand story (through whatever medium) doesn't convey the emotional experience of the people involved.

Take the Holocaust, for instance - everyone likes to throw around figures and death tolls, but when you look at it on a page or hear it on TV its nothing more than a bare statistic. Without being able to fully appreciate that those numbers relate to real people its hard to form an emotional connection to it or to the people involved (ever seen people break down at the Auschwitz memorial?) There's something to be said for 'tangible history'.

Similiarly while I can't imagine being tortured, I can go to the London Dungeon or Tower of London, see the torture engines and imagine that being incarcerated there in the middle-ages wouldn't have been a pleasant experience.

yet one difference is we have survivors of the holocaust still alive, whereas we don't have anyone alive who was a former slave.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Sure. But why? Why would you say "..look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them." African people can't do anything but 'screw up' anything you give them?

Okay then. I am not the one turning race into an issue but if you want to go down that road, lets do it. Show me all of the ex "white man" controlled African nations which are now prospering. Nations that are now under someone else's controll. Like Dafur..

The same people who call someone Caucasian a racist seem to turn a blind eye on stuff like the following..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/456363/khall..._the_white_man/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAg_5tL4gY

I simply asked why you would say something like that. Sub-texts aside what point is being made with such a statement?

Similarly in your question above - what is the purpose of asking to be shown

...all of the ex "white man" controlled African nations which are now prospering. Nations that are now under someone else's controll. Like Dafur..

Why do you keep bringing this sort of stuff up? You have and are making this a race issue, and the hole gets deeper each time you make these kind of statements - without qualification before flitting onto something else or tossing in the Ottoman Empire apparently for $hits and giggles.