Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites

[Heracles 417]

Just curious?

If slavery didn't exsist where would they be now? Dying of AIDs and malnutrition in Africa?

That's one of those questions you're not supposed to ask

Plus look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them. No wait that is racist. That is reality. Fact: Per Capita South Africa now has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault.

Many, on the sea voyages back and forth. Thrown off if they fell sick or if the ship just needed to lose weight. Many more once in the States, if they were weak or otherwise unproductive.

Read up on it, the history of that era is tragic.

What about the fact that many slaves where actually sold by their own people in Africa.

Not 'exactly' their own people was it... Powerful tribes selling the captives of defeated rivals for profit.

yes who where Black..

Plus 'assuming' that every slave was treated poorly and without dignity.

Yeah, because there's so much dignity in treating a man like chattel.

LOL OMG

there's no such thing as a 'slave with dignity'...

Show me where every slave, that 1.5% of Americans owned, was whipped and tortured.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Plus 'assuming' that every slave was treated poorly and without dignity.

Yeah, because there's so much dignity in treating a man like chattel.

LOL OMG

there's no such thing as a 'slave with dignity'...

Not really no. And that's an understatement. Whatever 'dignity' a slave had could be taken away at will by the owner.

Take this buggering, with dignity

Take this flogging, with dignity

Take being spat in the face and sworn at while you serve dinner, with dignity

I think not.

yes who where Black..

But not their 'own' people. Unless you're saying that all blacks have some sort of race-camaraderie. We're not talking "Live & Let Die" here, where all the blacks in Harlem are shown to be in cahoots and part of the criminal underworld.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Show me where every slave, that 1.5% of Americans owned, was whipped and tortured.

That isn't the point. Being a 'slave' is demeaning and degrading, regardless of how you are treated. You can't relativise it when there was no agreed standard for 'appropriate treatment' other than what the owner chose to impose.

Would it be unreasonable to suggest that whatever "kind" treatment the slave might receive would disappear pretty quickly if they were disobedient, and the 'master' felt the need to put the slave in his place?

[Jenn! 918]

Show me where every slave, that 1.5% of Americans owned, was whipped and tortured.

So you think that being a slave, as long as you were not being whipped and tortured, couldn't have been so bad? Are you for real?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Plus look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them. No wait that is racist. That is reality. Fact: Per Capita South Africa now has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault.

Its absolutely racist if you're saying that the reason for this is because they're black.

Since you mentioned it - if (as you say) African American hip hop culture is to blame for the high level of crime among black communities in America - what do you think the cause for that might be in South Africa. No "bling bling, bang bang" over there. Got an answer for that?

Oh yes - that's right. It's because they're black Only you won't say it. You will however go up to the line.

[Heracles 417]

But not their 'own' people. Unless you're saying that all blacks have some sort of race-camaraderie. We're not talking "Live & Let Die" here, where all the blacks in Harlem are shown to be in cahoots and part of the criminal underworld.

No never said that but at the same time people have no problem accusing all Caucasian Americans of being slave owners.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But not their 'own' people. Unless you're saying that all blacks have some sort of race-camaraderie. We're not talking "Live & Let Die" here, where all the blacks in Harlem are shown to be in cahoots and part of the criminal underworld.

No never said that but at the same time people have no problem accusing all Caucasian Americans of being slave owners.

Who? Where?

You can't relativise this issue.

[Heracles 417]

Plus look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them. No wait that is racist. That is reality. Fact: Per Capita South Africa now has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault.

Its absolutely racist if you're saying that the reason for this is because they're black.

Since you mentioned it - if (as you say) African American hip hop culture is to blame for the high level of crime among black communities in America - what do you think the cause for that might be in South Africa. No "bling bling, bang bang" over there. Got an answer for that?

Oh yes - that's right. It's because they're black Only you won't say it. You will however go up to the line.

I like how your trying to turn this into a skin color issue. Why do you insist on denying the facts and pigeonholing anyone who speaks about these facts? A South African is nothing like an poor tri-hard American black guy. So don't even try to compare the two.

Hang on a minute. You are the one who suggests that basically the rich white guy is always to blame. I am sure we are to blame for South Africa as well.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Heracles 417]

But not their 'own' people. Unless you're saying that all blacks have some sort of race-camaraderie. We're not talking "Live & Let Die" here, where all the blacks in Harlem are shown to be in cahoots and part of the criminal underworld.

No never said that but at the same time people have no problem accusing all Caucasian Americans of being slave owners.

Who? Where?

You can't relativise this issue.

So you have never seem someone black use slavery as an excuse and blamed the "white man" for this and that. Now you are simply playing dumb.

[Heracles 417]

Show me where every slave, that 1.5% of Americans owned, was whipped and tortured.

So you think that being a slave, as long as you were not being whipped and tortured, couldn't have been so bad? Are you for real?

Is being restrained the same as being bashed? apparently so.

First of all no one in this generation of Americans has been or is a slave, in America, therefore no one knows what it felt like. So don't act like you do.

[Heracles 417]

Its absolutely racist if you're saying that the reason for this is because they're black.

It seems you are confusing my use of the description Black to skin color. The only reason I am doing so is because I refuse to call someone African who has not, nor his bloodline, been to Africa in over 200 years; as they are not African.

I am not surprised that you have turned this into a color issue as it easier to do so than argue the FACTS of the OP.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[mawilson 2,133]

Just curious?

If slavery didn't exsist where would they be now? Dying of AIDs and malnutrition in Africa?

That's one of those questions you're not supposed to ask

But if you do ask, they'll tell you that AIDS and malnutrition in Africa are the white man's fault too.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Show me where every slave, that 1.5% of Americans owned, was whipped and tortured.

So you think that being a slave, as long as you were not being whipped and tortured, couldn't have been so bad? Are you for real?

Is being restrained the same as being bashed? apparently so.

First of all no one in this generation of Americans has been or is a slave, in America, therefore no one knows what it felt like. So don't act like you do.

I read books. I can imagine.

What exactly is your point there anyway? You seem to be suggesting that being a slave is some sort of positive experience or something. I can imagine it might be - to the owner.

[JamalNTam 1]

Plus look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them. No wait that is racist. That is reality. Fact: Per Capita South Africa now has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault.

Its absolutely racist if you're saying that the reason for this is because they're black.

Since you mentioned it - if (as you say) African American hip hop culture is to blame for the high level of crime among black communities in America - what do you think the cause for that might be in South Africa. No "bling bling, bang bang" over there. Got an answer for that?

Oh yes - that's right. It's because they're black Only you won't say it. You will however go up to the line.

I like how your trying to turn this into a skin color issue. Why do you insist on denying the facts and pigeonholing anyone who speaks about these facts? A South African is nothing like an poor tri-hard American black guy. So don't even try to compare the two.

Hang on a minute. You are the one who suggests that basically the rich white guy is always to blame. I am sure we are to blame for South Africa as well.

I cant believe the arguments that you are coming out with and then turn around and say your not racist!!! It makes me angry!

Do you not know the modern history of south africa?

Apartheid (meaning separateness in Afrikaans, cognate to English apart and -hood) was a system of ethnic separation in South Africa from 1948, and was dismantled in a series of negotiations from 1990 to 1993, culminating in democratic elections in 1994.

The rules of Apartheid meant that people were legally classified into a racial group — the main ones being Black, White, Coloured and Indian — and were separated from each other on the basis of the legal classification. Blacks legally became citizens of one of ten bantustans (homelands) that were nominally sovereign nations. These homelands were created out of the territory of Black Reserves founded during the British Empire period -- Reserves akin to United States Indian Reservations, Canadian First Nations reserves, or Australian aboriginal reserves. Many Black South Africans never resided in these "homelands."

This prevented black people from having a vote in "white South Africa" (even if they resided there) -- their voting rights being restricted to the black homelands. Black homelands were created in the least productive lands in the country. Education, medical care, and other public services were segregated, and those available to Black people were inferior. Their education system, within "white South Africa", was designed to ensure that they were only capable of serving as labourers to White industry.

In South Africa you will find that there is a huge seperation between rich and poor - the poor being mostly black. This is NOT because of their skin color or their culture, but because they were forced into this poverty by the government of their own country. This is very similar to what happened to African Americans in the USA. Its not just slavery that have held african americans back, its the laws that were around until 1965. And you may try to disagree with me, but discrimination is still around, infact, your living proof.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hang on - lets review here. You said:

With all things being equal, is the crime rate the same amongst poor black, white and Hispanic groups? I think not. Simply saying poverty is the problem is denial.

Is education valued the same in various races?

Is the perceived responsibility of parents the same amongst various races?

Is the teen pregnancy rates the same amongst the various races?

Is violence and vandalism of public and others property the same amongst the various races?

Plus look how well people there have handled and managed pretty much every country that has been handed back to them. No wait that is racist. That is reality. Fact: Per Capita South Africa now has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Be it rape or homicide or assault.

You brought South Africa into the mix. Would you mind then explaining how the experience of South African blacks (as it pertains to propensity to commit crime) compares with blacks in the US? If its about African American hip-hop culture - I'd really like to know how this translates to South Africa, which is... shall we say... a rather different cultural experience - considering that the US did away with its official Apartheid policy decades before the South African govt did.

At least qualify this part of your earlier post as it pertains to South Africa. What social/cultural commonalities do you see being the causes of this tendency toward criminality? What is it about Black South African culture and "African American" culture that causes this? Could it be that its not quite as simple as you want it to be?

So what is your conclusion? Do you think it's a difference on a biological level (that being born Black, one is more inclined to crime)?

Why are you trying to make it out as if it has something to do with the color of someone's skin. I certainly am not. There are differences in cultural attitudes, ethnicity, way of life, customs, traditions etc and that is what I am discussing.

PS Actually you have raised a whole other issue. How in America it is okay for someone black to be racist towards someone Caucasian but totally unacceptable for someone white to discuss anything about someone black. Plenty of examples of that out there.

You also went on to relativise slavery by pointing out (quite aggressively) that some slaves were treated decently - which might lead some to to the conclusion that its a justification of the original policy. Revisionist history at work - its hard to imagine an 'average' slave experience, but it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that the 'bad days' outweighed the good.

So what if your master is a kindly old Mr Kipling type - do you honestly expect him to remain so if you flat out refused to turn up for work in the morning?

But not their 'own' people. Unless you're saying that all blacks have some sort of race-camaraderie. We're not talking "Live & Let Die" here, where all the blacks in Harlem are shown to be in cahoots and part of the criminal underworld.

No never said that but at the same time people have no problem accusing all Caucasian Americans of being slave owners.

Who? Where?

You can't relativise this issue.

So you have never seem someone black use slavery as an excuse and blamed the "white man" for this and that. Now you are simply playing dumb.

Yes - I've heard those arguments before. And I've heard the reaction to them. People say stupid things. Being stupid is, of course, not a factor of ethnicity. Indeed nor is it uncommon. That said, a person doesn't need to be stupid to support evil ideas. Like slavery

Edited July 20, 2007 by Number 6