California bans sales of new gasoline-powered vehicles by 2035 in milestone step

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

16 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I will start by saying the California mandate is insane and will never hold up. EV and hybrids have a place and are great vehicles but not for everyone.  Emergency first responder vehicles for example. Also most are covered by warranty for at least 8 years 100k. Toyota is 10 years 150k. 

 

Lot of misinformation out there

 

Only about 18% of USA electricity is generated by coal.. The here comes another load of EV fuel with pictures of coal trucks is misleading. 

 

I have also seen posts claiming cost of charging EV are more than gas. That is fake news also. It varies a lot but 8  to 15 bucks for a full charge is a good estimate. 

 

That volt 26k bill was circulated on some of my sales FB group. It's not real. A voltage battery according to the Chevy techs is 6 to 8k.

  Replacing a Toyota hybrid battery can range from as low as 1300. With a 10 year 150k warranty. 

 

Cost of ownership for our hybrids are lower than ICE vehicles even though you pay a little more upfront. About 1500 to 2k on most models.. That is why you see so many hybrids in major cities being used as Taxi's.  I see hybrids with 150+ miles on a frequent basis with original batteries. 

Not sure where you are getting your info... you are close enough to smell the smoke, but not quite close enough to taste the BBQ.

Natural gas produces about 38% of electricity today, coal is 22%, and nuclear is 19%.  That leaves about 20% for renewables, and 0.5% for petroleum.

 

Yes, charging an EV is cheaper than filling up with gas, but NOT by all that much.  Depends on driving habits.  The average fill up for a 100kWh battery is $15.92 across the US.  But how many times a month are you doing this?  in 2021, I spent $48.89 per month for gas, wiper blades, and oil change for my truck.  I don't really think charging an EV would be much cheaper.

I agree that Volt bill is fake.  But so is the claim that a battery only costs $6-8k.  I provided not only the part number but also the price above -  $9,100.  That was what a dealer quoted me.  (now to be fair, one might be able to find an off-brand batter cheaper by not going thru a dealer, so if that's what you meant, then fair enough.)

I'd have to see current data on a hybrid vs non-hybrid vehicle to know if the balance is there now.  I know that a few years back, I bought a V6 Accord, and my neighbor bought the same year, same vehicle, but it was a hybrid.  We drove our cars for 6 months, gathered data, and thru some spreadsheet math, determined that it would take him seven years to break even with the higher purchase he paid vs my ICE (we lived on the same street, so most variables were eliminated, right down to the paint color; it too was identical).

If anyone is buying an EV to "save on gas", they will be in for a big surprise.  They won't "save" any money for several years.  I have a friend who bought a 2020 Tesla S, a solar charger with two batteries (big enough to power his house AND charge his car, but he paid about $67,500 for the package.  I just bought a 2022 Ridgeline and paid $46,000.  ($21,500 difference, plus mine is 2 years newer). So assuming he pays zero to charge, and saves $150 a month on electricity, it will take him 10.2 years just to break even.  But by then, he will likely either need a new battery, or will soon after.  So another $10k, whereas my engine will barely be broken in.

Just some facts to chew on.  EVs are NOT going to be mainstream any time soon.  Only those with bigly disposable incomes who prefer not to invest their money are the only ones who will be buying them.  The $7500 credit that Biden is offering people who make less than $150k won't be much of an incentive to buy is my prediction.  But I might be wrong about that.  We will see if EV's skyrocket past the current 1% of all vehicles on the road today.  I don't think sufficient infrastructure will exist for another 3-5 years. 

Having said all of that, EVs are FUN to drive.   Minus the extra cost in tires, of course.

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

Boiler's video

I should have watched it before I replied.  Thanks for posting it up.  While it's not the norm, it just bears out the fact that EVs are NOT a smart buy as compared to an ICE.  Yet.  We might get there some day, but not today.  And not next year.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

31 minutes ago, LIBrty4all said:

I should have watched it before I replied.  Thanks for posting it up.  While it's not the norm, it just bears out the fact that EVs are NOT a smart buy as compared to an ICE.  Yet.  We might get there some day, but not today.  And not next year.

But hybrids are it's more than just gas savings.  

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Nature Boy 2.0

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

I don't disagree with you, but the admin isn't pushing hybrids, only EVs.  

Heard that Toyota hybrids are a rare find on a lot.  Is this true in your neck of the woods in West Palm Beach?  Or is supply getting better on them?

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

Nice to see that the gap between hybrids and ICE vehicles has come way down.  I remember when hybrids were $8-13k more on average.

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

1 hour ago, LIBrty4all said:

Not sure where you are getting your info... you are close enough to smell the smoke, but not quite close enough to taste the BBQ.

Natural gas produces about 38% of electricity today, coal is 22%, and nuclear is 19%.  That leaves about 20% for renewables, and 0.5% for petroleum.

 

Yes, charging an EV is cheaper than filling up with gas, but NOT by all that much.  Depends on driving habits.  The average fill up for a 100kWh battery is $15.92 across the US.  But how many times a month are you doing this?  in 2021, I spent $48.89 per month for gas, wiper blades, and oil change for my truck.  I don't really think charging an EV would be much cheaper.

I agree that Volt bill is fake.  But so is the claim that a battery only costs $6-8k.  I provided not only the part number but also the price above -  $9,100.  That was what a dealer quoted me.  (now to be fair, one might be able to find an off-brand batter cheaper by not going thru a dealer, so if that's what you meant, then fair enough.)

I'd have to see current data on a hybrid vs non-hybrid vehicle to know if the balance is there now.  I know that a few years back, I bought a V6 Accord, and my neighbor bought the same year, same vehicle, but it was a hybrid.  We drove our cars for 6 months, gathered data, and thru some spreadsheet math, determined that it would take him seven years to break even with the higher purchase he paid vs my ICE (we lived on the same street, so most variables were eliminated, right down to the paint color; it too was identical).

If anyone is buying an EV to "save on gas", they will be in for a big surprise.  They won't "save" any money for several years.  I have a friend who bought a 2020 Tesla S, a solar charger with two batteries (big enough to power his house AND charge his car, but he paid about $67,500 for the package.  I just bought a 2022 Ridgeline and paid $46,000.  ($21,500 difference, plus mine is 2 years newer). So assuming he pays zero to charge, and saves $150 a month on electricity, it will take him 10.2 years just to break even.  But by then, he will likely either need a new battery, or will soon after.  So another $10k, whereas my engine will barely be broken in.

Just some facts to chew on.  EVs are NOT going to be mainstream any time soon.  Only those with bigly disposable incomes who prefer not to invest their money are the only ones who will be buying them.  The $7500 credit that Biden is offering people who make less than $150k won't be much of an incentive to buy is my prediction.  But I might be wrong about that.  We will see if EV's skyrocket past the current 1% of all vehicles on the road today.  I don't think sufficient infrastructure will exist for another 3-5 years. 

Having said all of that, EVs are FUN to drive.   Minus the extra cost in tires, of course.

Oops, I forgot my link:

 

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php

[TBoneTX 45,866]

Just found tonight on RealClearPolitics:

https://amac.us/californias-war-on-gas-vehicles-threatens-entire-u-s-economy/

[Dashinka 24,717]

14 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

Up to $35k for a replacement battery?  That's ridiculous.

 

15 hours ago, Mike E said:

 

My own research  has says a volt battery replacement averages $19,000. The quote you posted is an outlier but not that much of one. 

 

https://chevyguide.com/chevy-volt-battery-replacement-cost/

 

“

In short, the average cost to replace a Chevrolet volt battery is $19200 this ranges from $3400- 35000 getting a new one costs a lot more than getting a repurposed one.

”

That’s simply ridiculous 

 

Personally I’ve thoroughly enjoyed and continue to enjoy my 2017 Tesla S. If the battery dies after the 8 / 100,000 mile warranty dies so be it.  It was a toy I could afford and I’ve no regrets. I bought it when Tesla’s survival as a company was very much up in the air and I went into it thinking that 2 years later I might end up with abandonware. 

 

I suspect most Volt owners feel the same way about their purchases. 
 

But your point is taken and this grand experiment with EVs might end if manufacturers don’t do something about the battery situation. There is a lot of hopium being smoked and sold by the Democrat party, especially since the Party hates Tesla.
 

An EV from any manufacturer but Tesla is worse that a toy: it’s a joke.  
 

And an EV from the big 3s of the USA, Japan, or Germany is a hysterical joke.  Those 9 manufacturers are clueless about EVs.  
 

I’m ok with going back to a gasoline powered car if necessary. But if the stock market recovers before I can no longer drive I might continue to buy these toys.   

 

 

 

 

The issue I always see with this debate is the battery replacement is compared to an engine replacement in an ICE vehicle.  This is apples and oranges as the battery is an energy storage device, not the propulsion system of the vehicle.  A correct comparison to a battery replacement in an EV would be the cost of replacing the fuel tank in an ICE vehicle.

 

The other thing that will really hurt early EV adopters is the changing battery technologies.  Older EVs using older batteries will most likely be phased out with almost no thought of replacement parts after the 10-15yr obligation is fulfilled hence the issue with the Focus EV and the Volt.  The early Bolt EV will face a similar situation at some point.  I will give Tesla props as it’s battery technology has been relatively stable, but it will be interesting to see what will happen if they in fact make a change.

[Dashinka 24,717]

13 hours ago, Boiler said:

Normal Tesla battery pack is circa 10k

 

i can see specialists setting up to replace battery packs I know they are out there for Prius

 

In 10 years you may be able to get a much better pack for less money 

Except the battery packs in most EVs are architectural, so doing a pack for a specific early EV in relatively low volumes will not be very profitable,  EVs are moving more and more toward disposable electronic devices.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

7 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

I don't disagree with you, but the admin isn't pushing hybrids, only EVs.  

Heard that Toyota hybrids are a rare find on a lot.  Is this true in your neck of the woods in West Palm Beach?  Or is supply getting better on them?

Yes. Every thing is rare. Especially hybrids and the Corrola Cross.

[Dashinka 24,717]

10 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

If anyone is buying an EV to "save on gas", they will be in for a big surprise.  They won't "save" any money for several years.  I have a friend who bought a 2020 Tesla S, a solar charger with two batteries (big enough to power his house AND charge his car, but he paid about $67,500 for the package.  I just bought a 2022 Ridgeline and paid $46,000.  ($21,500 difference, plus mine is 2 years newer). So assuming he pays zero to charge, and saves $150 a month on electricity, it will take him 10.2 years just to break even.  But by then, he will likely either need a new battery, or will soon after.  So another $10k, whereas my engine will barely be broken in.

Just some facts to chew on.  EVs are NOT going to be mainstream any time soon.  Only those with bigly disposable incomes who prefer not to invest their money are the only ones who will be buying them.  The $7500 credit that Biden is offering people who make less than $150k won't be much of an incentive to buy is my prediction.  But I might be wrong about that.  We will see if EV's skyrocket past the current 1% of all vehicles on the road today.  I don't think sufficient infrastructure will exist for another 3-5 years. 

Having said all of that, EVs are FUN to drive.   Minus the extra cost in tires, of course.

This is so true.  If people are buying an EV for a cost savings, any financial analysis will tell you this will take quite some time for comparably equipped vehicles.  For my wife's recent car, it was something like 12 years, but she likes all the bells and whistles.  Sure one could replace a fully loaded mid-size SUV with a Chevy Bolt and save money probably very soon, but of course you have to give up on cargo space, comfort, and convenience as well as deal with a vehicle using older battery technology that has issues with production variation.  This of course assumes the cost of electricity does not change, but that seems very short sighted.

 

If one is buying an EV to save the planet, they are also in for a big surprise, but of course these type of folks tend to ignore the "other" emissions from an EV such as hydrocarbons from the construction materials, or tires, as well as the emissions from the "dirty" digging in the ground for the materials needed to build these EVs.  I saw an article that a Hummer EV emits more CO2 over the course of 150k miles than a comparable ICE half-ton pick-up.

 

Now if one makes the EV purchase knowing all of this and is only interested in the performance advantages such as torque, or acceleration, that is fine, and is similar to those that buy a premium performance vehicle like an ICE Ferrari or Bugatti.  No one really needs a vehicle like those, but hey, they can be fun, and it is their money.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

21 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

Not sure where you are getting your info... you are close enough to smell the smoke, but not quite close enough to taste the BBQ.

Natural gas produces about 38% of electricity today, coal is 22%, and nuclear is 19%.  That leaves about 20% for renewables, and 0.5% for petroleum.

 

Yes, charging an EV is cheaper than filling up with gas, but NOT by all that much.  Depends on driving habits.  The average fill up for a 100kWh battery is $15.92 across the US.  But how many times a month are you doing this?  in 2021, I spent $48.89 per month for gas, wiper blades, and oil change for my truck.  I don't really think charging an EV would be much cheaper.

I agree that Volt bill is fake.  But so is the claim that a battery only costs $6-8k.  I provided not only the part number but also the price above -  $9,100.  That was what a dealer quoted me.  (now to be fair, one might be able to find an off-brand batter cheaper by not going thru a dealer, so if that's what you meant, then fair enough.)

I'd have to see current data on a hybrid vs non-hybrid vehicle to know if the balance is there now.  I know that a few years back, I bought a V6 Accord, and my neighbor bought the same year, same vehicle, but it was a hybrid.  We drove our cars for 6 months, gathered data, and thru some spreadsheet math, determined that it would take him seven years to break even with the higher purchase he paid vs my ICE (we lived on the same street, so most variables were eliminated, right down to the paint color; it too was identical).

If anyone is buying an EV to "save on gas", they will be in for a big surprise.  They won't "save" any money for several years.  I have a friend who bought a 2020 Tesla S, a solar charger with two batteries (big enough to power his house AND charge his car, but he paid about $67,500 for the package.  I just bought a 2022 Ridgeline and paid $46,000.  ($21,500 difference, plus mine is 2 years newer). So assuming he pays zero to charge, and saves $150 a month on electricity, it will take him 10.2 years just to break even.  But by then, he will likely either need a new battery, or will soon after.  So another $10k, whereas my engine will barely be broken in.

Just some facts to chew on.  EVs are NOT going to be mainstream any time soon.  Only those with bigly disposable incomes who prefer not to invest their money are the only ones who will be buying them.  The $7500 credit that Biden is offering people who make less than $150k won't be much of an incentive to buy is my prediction.  But I might be wrong about that.  We will see if EV's skyrocket past the current 1% of all vehicles on the road today.  I don't think sufficient infrastructure will exist for another 3-5 years. 

Having said all of that, EVs are FUN to drive.   Minus the extra cost in tires, of course.

Cost in tires? 411 .me

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:40 PM, LIBrty4all said:

Just remember... many of us won't qualify for that $7500 EV credit, which makes owning an EV much more expensive than an ICE any day of the week, even with our current high gas prices.  (I've seen figures of gas climbing to $12 per gallon is about the break-even point, but haven't had the energy to verify).

Meanwhile, when your EV gets to be about 10-12 years old, it WILL need a new battery, unlike an ICE which can likely still be driving 15/20/25 years later.  And even if it DOES need a new engine, that cost will be $3-5k.

But here's a Chevy Volt battery replacement:
 

So, back to this... a friend sad the dealership replied on FB about it, and shared their response with me:

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

2 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Cost in tires? 411 .me

Not sure what you mean?  I was referring to the fact that EVs go thru tires about twice as fast as ICEs.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

28 minutes ago, LIBrty4all said:

Not sure what you mean?  I was referring to the fact that EVs go thru tires about twice as fast as ICEs.

Yes I was asking why. I did not know that