Two women incarcerated at Edna Mahan Correctional Facility — the state’s only female prison — have become pregnant

[Boiler 45,928]

https://www.nj.com/news/2022/04/two-women-at-nj-prison-are-pregnant-after-consensual-sex-between-inmates-doc-says.html

 

It appears the women became pregnant from “consensual sexual relationships with another incarcerated person,” Dan Sperrazza, the DOC’s external affairs executive director, said.

Although Sperrazza did not identify the inmates in question, Edna Mahan houses 27 prisoners who identify as transgender. He said the investigation is ongoing.

[laylalex 7,300]

If you're truly concerned about what is going on inside women's prisons -- including at Edna Mahan -- this is a recent and sobering opinion piece:

Quote

 

In 2019, state Rep. Leslie Herod (D) spoke to the Colorado House about how incarcerated women were being forced to perform sex acts in exchange for menstrual products. A 2018 New York magazine piece about rape at Rikers Island noted that guards had reportedly rationed menstrual supplies as a “form of intimidation or punishment.” In 2016, American University law professor Brenda V. Smith told HuffPost that she was aware of numerous rape cases related to women exchanging sex for period products.

 

Correctional facilities in multiple states have been sued for these abuses. In 2020, for instance, formerly incarcerated women from the Edna Mahan Correctional Facility for Women in New Jersey filed a lawsuit alleging that prison staff had demanded sexual favors in exchange for toilet paper and sanitary pads.

 

And sexual abuse is not the only horror. Without menstrual products, women in prison resort to using mattress stuffing, ripped bedsheets, socks, toilet paper and soiled, days old tampons. These menstrual mitigation measures, acts that women perform to contain their periods when products are unavailable, can result in painful, dangerous, even fatal medical outcomes — including toxic shock syndrome (which can lead to sepsis) and reproductive infections — in environments where women have also been known to be deprived of access to basic medical care.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/25/prison-period-danger-health-risks-sexual-abuse/

 

These are the true horrors. Not whether a trans woman had consensual sex with a couple of other women. To be sure, consensual sex between prisoners is almost certainly a violation of prison rules. But women should not be humiliated, grow sick, die, or be sexually assaulted/exploited simply for having to deal with a fact of life that is common to most of us born in a woman's body. We do not deny toilet paper to prisoners; tampons and pads are not a luxury, they are as much a necessity as toilet paper. Sorry to be a downer.

[Boiler 45,928]

I am sure all sorts of nasty things happen in prison, things that should not happen. When the system by design creates additional issues well that is another what were they thinking. It is the people who thought this was a good idea that was my focus.

 

I do remember some years back there was the case I think in Sweden of a Rapist who transitioned and served her sentence in a female prison and guess what happened.

 

Let's go with this being consensual, so it did initially amuse me and then I thought about the resultant children and the lives they would have and maybe not so.

 

I could be proven wrong but I have a feeling that we will be seeing a massive decline in the number of male prisoners. I think things will get worse if we have mixed prisons, but that seems the inevitable conclusion..

 

There was a classic BBC Comedy show by the name of Porridge, time for a remake.

[TBoneTX 45,875]

Convicted criminals are sentenced to incarceration, not to additional inhumane treatment thereafter.  Agree with LL about basic products and with Boiler about resultant children.

[Dashinka 24,724]

Best intentions and all.  No one thinks about or they out right ignore the unintended consequences.  Like Layla and Boiler mentioned, there is a lot of stuff that goes on in prisons that most of us would not condone, but why open up the potential for a serial rapist to easily be put in a place where he/she is surrounded by potential victims.  There are definitely people that will take advantage of the situation(s), recent history has shown us this (Catholic Priest, and Boy Scout scandals).

[Dashinka 24,724]

6 hours ago, laylalex said:

If you're truly concerned about what is going on inside women's prisons -- including at Edna Mahan -- this is a recent and sobering opinion piece:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/25/prison-period-danger-health-risks-sexual-abuse/

 

These are the true horrors. Not whether a trans woman had consensual sex with a couple of other women. To be sure, consensual sex between prisoners is almost certainly a violation of prison rules. But women should not be humiliated, grow sick, die, or be sexually assaulted/exploited simply for having to deal with a fact of life that is common to most of us born in a woman's body. We do not deny toilet paper to prisoners; tampons and pads are not a luxury, they are as much a necessity as toilet paper. Sorry to be a downer.

While I agree with you on what you outlined, I disagree that we can say all of this was consensual.  Just as it is wrong for a prison guard (male or female) to take advantage of an incarcerated inmate, it is wrong for another incarcerated inmate to also take advantage of others.

[Boiler 45,928]

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Best intentions and all.  No one thinks about or they out right ignore the unintended consequences.  Like Layla and Boiler mentioned, there is a lot of stuff that goes on in prisons that most of us would not condone, but why open up the potential for a serial rapist to easily be put in a place where he/she is surrounded by potential victims.  There are definitely people that will take advantage of the situation(s), recent history has shown us this (Catholic Priest, and Boy Scout scandals).

How can it be unintended? Inevitable.

[Dashinka 24,724]

14 minutes ago, Boiler said:

How can it be unintended? Inevitable.

I guess I was giving the people that force these "progressive" policies the benefit of the doubt, but you are right.

[Boiler 45,928]

I had a look and seems this facility has a long list of egregious behaviour so nothing new.

 

The legal cost and consequences could be interesting

 

[laylalex 7,300]

9 hours ago, Dashinka said:

While I agree with you on what you outlined, I disagree that we can say all of this was consensual.  Just as it is wrong for a prison guard (male or female) to take advantage of an incarcerated inmate, it is wrong for another incarcerated inmate to also take advantage of others.

Thanks. I think we're having a good conversation here on this topic. And I totally agree with you about "consensual" -- I kind of didn't think about that with the sort of nuance you point out. You're quite correct.

[TBoneTX 45,875]

Has everyone else noticed how high-level conversations are here when LL participates?  

Gracias, LL ma'am.

[Redro 4,611]

I totally understand why people blindly support transgender rights. 

For most people, being transgender means you've undergone extensive counseling and gender re-assignment surgery. 

But, a few states are totally okay with self-identification with no surgery/modifications needed. 

The question of "no one would claim to be transgender if they weren't" then no longer holds water if all you have to do is sign a paper to be recognized as the opposite sex. 

https://www.lsnjlaw.org/Government-Aid-Services/Transportation/Pages/Change-Gender-Marker-IDs.aspx#:~:text=New Jersey will now let,had “gender reassignment surgery.”&text=To change the gender identity,New Jersey Department of Health.

 

With the awful conditions most individuals face when they are in prison... this is very worrying. Just because you committed a crime doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected. 

 

Also, not being facetious but what happens to the children in this situation? Will they grow up in prison? Be sent to live with a close relative? Are they going to be adopted out to strangers? 

[laylalex 7,300]

I think the problem is we are really just at the beginning of more openly understanding and embracing that people (trans and cis alike) should have rights to be accepted as the sex/gender they are, which may or may not match up with what they were assigned at birth. And the law is trying to catch up to what's a reality in our society. Of course there will be people who misrepresent themselves as being trans for underhanded purposes, but the problem remains -- do you prevent people who genuinely are trans from being able to do things that cis-gendered people can do as a matter of course? 

 

And because it's new and inchoate we don't really know where the lines lie. How do you protect the greatest number of people from harm (here, being denied the dignity of being treated as the sex/gender they are) whether cis or trans? My husband and I have had a number of conversations where we don't quite agree on the topic -- he doesn't believe trans girls should be competing in sports alongside/against cis girls due to biological advantages. I get where he's coming from, but not every trans girl (or woman) is going to have that advantage, so is a blanket prohibition the best way to serve everyone? 

 

As a society, we need to thrash these issues out through bringing our laws and rules up to date. We're nowhere near that yet, and it will take time. Unfortunately, there are going to be any number of difficult and probably wrong choices made along the way, choices that hurt people, all sorts of people. We need to be patient and be open-minded in the meantime.

 

Just my two pennies on this!

[Dashinka 24,724]

How is being transgendered new?  I have worked with many people that are transgendered, and they were accepted as regular people.  Same with gay and lesbian people.  Not sure what laws need to catch up.

[Redro 4,611]

59 minutes ago, laylalex said:

And because it's new and inchoate we don't really know where the lines lie. How do you protect the greatest number of people from harm (here, being denied the dignity of being treated as the sex/gender they are) whether cis or trans? My husband and I have had a number of conversations where we don't quite agree on the topic -- he doesn't believe trans girls should be competing in sports alongside/against cis girls due to biological advantages. I get where he's coming from, but not every trans girl (or woman) is going to have that advantage, so is a blanket prohibition the best way to serve everyone? 

 

But, we can also say... why don't we have boys and girls compete in sport together? Not every boy is going to have an advantage.

Women's sports were created for a reason. Have you seen this:

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

 

And this?

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

 

.