Canadian health care (split)

[Ontarkie 14,213]

16 hours ago, S9471 said:

ah yes, although that's not entirely accurate - taxes and entitlements for social benefits are also tied to the time spent outside the country and in the province you might be in. you can have US green card and still live a chunk of time in Canada to be eligible.

Social benefits stop the they you endorse the visa. Endorsing the visa tells Canada you are leaving and no longer a Canadian resident. BC is a bit different (there may be another province) as in BC you pay into the provincial health care 30 days in advance. You will continue to have health care in BC for the rest of those 30 days.  Now when ppl mention being gone from Canada and returning within a certain time frame to keep their health care that only applies to situations like college kids, snowbirds etc.. As they are not moving permanently away from Canada. When you activate that visa you are telling Canada your gone permanently. Sure life changes and ppl return back but then you also have a waiting period before you qualify for things again. 

[S9471 60]

7 hours ago, Ontarkie said:

Social benefits stop the they you endorse the visa. Endorsing the visa tells Canada you are leaving and no longer a Canadian resident. BC is a bit different (there may be another province) as in BC you pay into the provincial health care 30 days in advance. You will continue to have health care in BC for the rest of those 30 days.  Now when ppl mention being gone from Canada and returning within a certain time frame to keep their health care that only applies to situations like college kids, snowbirds etc.. As they are not moving permanently away from Canada. When you activate that visa you are telling Canada your gone permanently. Sure life changes and ppl return back but then you also have a waiting period before you qualify for things again. 

totally off-topic - promise to drop after this, but chatted with another couple of guys including a lawyer, that went through the process last year - this is not entirely accurate. things can vary, re: personal situation, healthcare and social benefits, of course, but just want to call out for others reading that be aware that this would be different from "resident status"

merely having an immigrant visa if you have canadian "green card" (or PR as they call it) does not stop the PR. you do not give up your PR status, nor do you give up your eligibility for the benefits if you return for the period established by the province you're in.

to maintain canadian PR, you need to be in canada 2 out of the 5 years. can't say for BC, but for Ontario you also need 153 days out of the year and primary residence be Ontario (that's where the lawyer guy is from) for healthcare benefits.

as long as you meet presence requirements for both Us and canada, you could potentially make it happen, although depending on the time you have, might as well get canadian citizenship and not worry about it.

Edited March 3, 2022 by S9471

[DGF 730]

1 hour ago, S9471 said:

totally off-topic - promise to drop after this, but chatted with another couple of guys including a lawyer, that went through the process last year - this is not entirely accurate. things can vary, re: personal situation, healthcare and social benefits, of course, but just want to call out for others reading that be aware that this would be different from "resident status"

merely having an immigrant visa if you have canadian "green card" (or PR as they call it) does not stop the PR. you do not give up your PR status, nor do you give up your eligibility for the benefits if you return for the period established by the province you're in.

to maintain canadian PR, you need to be in canada 2 out of the 5 years. can't say for BC, but for Ontario you also need 153 days out of the year and primary residence be Ontario (that's where the lawyer guy is from) for healthcare benefits.

as long as you meet presence requirements for both Us and canada, you could potentially make it happen, although depending on the time you have, might as well get canadian citizenship and not worry about it.

There are some good resources regarding this topic in the FAQ.

[Ontarkie 14,213]

1 hour ago, S9471 said:

totally off-topic - promise to drop after this, but chatted with another couple of guys including a lawyer, that went through the process last year - this is not entirely accurate. things can vary, re: personal situation, healthcare and social benefits, of course, but just want to call out for others reading that be aware that this would be different from "resident status"

merely having an immigrant visa if you have canadian "green card" (or PR as they call it) does not stop the PR. you do not give up your PR status, nor do you give up your eligibility for the benefits if you return for the period established by the province you're in.

to maintain canadian PR, you need to be in canada 2 out of the 5 years. can't say for BC, but for Ontario you also need 153 days out of the year and primary residence be Ontario (that's where the lawyer guy is from) for healthcare benefits.

as long as you meet presence requirements for both Us and canada, you could potentially make it happen, although depending on the time you have, might as well get canadian citizenship and not worry about it.

I think you are mixing up Canadian PR status with health care and other resident status. No they would not lose Canadian PR  that by getting US PR. Everyone loses health care when they get their visa endorsed, it does not matter if they are a Canadian citizen or Canadian PR. You do not get to be a resident for health care after you get your visa endorsed. You do not get to keep the monthly child tax credit or GST (i know they changed it to something else but you get my drift). 

Ontario you are no longer eligible for health care once you cross with that endorsed visa. All those requirements are not for ppl who leave to live elsewhere. The requirements are for ppl like students and snowbirds. Again the requirements to keep Canadian PR is not the same for health care of other social benefits. 

 

It would not be the first time a lawyer had no clue what they are talking about. 

[From_CAN_2_US 1,106]

9 hours ago, Ontarkie said:

Social benefits stop the they you endorse the visa. Endorsing the visa tells Canada you are leaving and no longer a Canadian resident. BC is a bit different (there may be another province) as in BC you pay into the provincial health care 30 days in advance. You will continue to have health care in BC for the rest of those 30 days.  Now when ppl mention being gone from Canada and returning within a certain time frame to keep their health care that only applies to situations like college kids, snowbirds etc.. As they are not moving permanently away from Canada. When you activate that visa you are telling Canada your gone permanently. Sure life changes and ppl return back but then you also have a waiting period before you qualify for things again. 

This is not correct. When social benefits ends depends on the type of social benefits and various other reasons. I have checked this by calling various divisions of Canadian Govt. I by no means have the full picture because it is rather complex, but I know the blanket statement that your social benefits end the moment you endorse your IR1/CR1 visa is incorrect. Effectively it is the end of most if not all social benefits for most of us, but that’s because most of us leave Canada for good severing ties such as residence, property, job etc.

 

To give you an example with healthcare in Ontario. Should an Ontario resident who is Canadian (or Canadian PR) get CR1/IR1 visa and then cross the border and get it endorsed, at that moment they have also become an LPR of the US. But if 10 minutes later (or 2 months later for that matter) they return to Ontario to their residence here, they are still entitled to OHIP. They can keep enjoying this so long as they maintain 183 within the province in a year. They lose OHIP only when they PERMANENTLY move, and this is triggered by a call one should make to service Ontario to cancel their healthcare as soon as they permanently move. If one doesn’t call, Ontario won’t necessarily know and won’t cancel your OHIP themselves. But if you have PERMANENTLY moved, and continue to return to Canada occasionally (10 days a year or so for example) and take advantage of the healthcare, know that you ARE committing healthcare fraud, because you are not entitled to it. And should Ontario find out you WILL be billed. 
 

But yeah, for those of us who just want to activate their visa and then take a few months to wrap up their jobs in Canada, sell their house etc… they are entitled to OHIP even AFTER endorsement because they are still residents of Canada. They have not moved…

 

It’s complex like I mentioned. So to keep things simple, especially if you are a PR like I am, and don’t want any hiccups with the law incase it causes issues with my Canadian citizenship, I check everything with the Govt as much as I can and keep things transparent with them. Also I err on the side of caution.

 

Another example of a benefit that doesn’t end when you become a US LPR - your EI. Not only can you claim EI because you moved to be with your spouse and are unemployed because of it, but I am entitled to EI should I lose my job after I moved to the US. This is because I am still a Canadian employee of my firm back in Toronto and working remotely. I am still contributing EI after I moved and so I am entitled to EI should I get laid off…

 

So yeah, the answer is not as black and white and @S9471 made some good points.

Edited March 3, 2022 by From_CAN_2_US

[Ontarkie 14,213]

22 minutes ago, From_CAN_2_US said:

This is not correct. When social benefits ends depends on the type of social benefits and various other reasons. I have checked this by calling various divisions of Canadian Govt. I by no means have the full picture because it is rather complex, but I know the blanket statement that your social benefits end the moment you endorse your IR1/CR1 visa is incorrect. Effectively it is the end of most if not all social benefits for most of us, but that’s because most of us leave Canada for good severing ties such as residence, property, job etc.

 

To give you an example with healthcare in Ontario. Should an Ontario resident who is Canadian (or Canadian PR) get CR1/IR1 visa and then cross the border and get it endorsed, at that moment they have also become an LPR of the US. But if 10 minutes later (or 2 months later for that matter) they return to Ontario to their residence here, they are still entitled to OHIP. They can keep enjoying this so long as they maintain 183 within the province in a year. They lose OHIP only when they PERMANENTLY move, and this is triggered by a call one should make to service Ontario to cancel their healthcare as soon as they permanently move. If one doesn’t call, Ontario won’t necessarily know and won’t cancel your OHIP themselves. But if you have PERMANENTLY moved, and continue to return to Canada occasionally (10 days a year or so for example) and take advantage of the healthcare, know that you ARE committing healthcare fraud, because you are not entitled to it. And should Ontario find out you WILL be billed. 
 

But yeah, for those of us who just want to activate their visa and then take a few months to wrap up their jobs in Canada, sell their house etc… they are entitled to OHIP even AFTER endorsement because they are still residents of Canada. They have not moved…

 

It’s complex like I mentioned. So to keep things simple, especially if you are a PR like I am, and don’t want any hiccups with the law incase it causes issues with my Canadian citizenship, I check everything with the Govt as much as I can and keep things transparent with them. Also I err on the side of caution.

 

Another example of a benefit that doesn’t end when you become a US LPR - your EI. Not only can you claim EI because you moved to be with your spouse and are unemployed because of it, but I am entitled to EI should I lose my job after I moved to the US. This is because I am still a Canadian employee of my firm back in Toronto and working remotely. I am still contributing EI after I moved and so I am entitled to EI should I get laid off…

 

So yeah, the answer is not as black and white and @S9471 made some good points.

EI is paid by you so of course you do not lose it. 

I'm going to split these comments off to their own thread as we have derailed this thread enough. 

 

Ok Thread split but no that is not how it works. 

Even if you continue to pay into OHIP working for a Canadian employer you are still not allowed to use the health care system. Now most employment type of insurance are for the extras you get. They are not full coverage they are just that extras. Now if your employer has dental you sure can use that because health Canada or OHIP in this case does not cover it to begin with. 

 

You cannot get your visa endorsed and turn right around  (flagpole) and still use OHIP. That is fraud, and yes we have had many accounts on here over the years that ppl have been billed. GST, baby bonus, provincial disability all gone. Even though those are things that you should be able to get as it is supposed to be part of your taxes that you pay but nope all gone. Ppl have called canceled the all these things, still the checks come in the mail and later on when the right hand actually sees what the left is doing the bills come in saying pay it all back. Funny how they have your address and everything after all this time but they sure kept sending checks. They all go back to the date you crossed. 

 

It is not complex, ppl just keep trying to find loopholes to it until they get a bill they keep going on and on.

We have even had someone work for Canada's CBP and had to pay into OHIP but she still was not entitled to use it. 

 

 

Again you are referring to things set in place for students and snowbirds. This 183 days does not apply to ppl who are making the move permanently. Not calling them to tell them you moved still does not mean you are covered. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Ontarkie

[Kai G. Llewellyn 832]

Canada and its provinces shouldn't really care about your foreign immigration status. One could get a work visa to the UK and that wouldn't automatically cancel one's Canadian healthcare. It comes down to the details regarding one's provincial residency. If you have activated an immigrant visa but immediately return to your province and decide not to move to the US in the end then you'll still be covered for your healthcare. It's at the point that you permanently move out of the province, and various things trigger that, such as changing your drivers license, filing taxes with the CRA as nonresident (and part of that you provide your departure date) and no longer paying provincial tax, among other things. And as mentioned that is also usually triggered by the call to the province that you have left. In terms of when your provincial residency ceases it is at the point of a permanent move and not when your foreign immigration status changes. I've yet to see an actual direct documented case on here where one was sent a bill for medical treatment they received after having the visa endorsed but before they moved, or a case where utilizing public healthcare was found out by CBP (outside of them maybe finding a health card) and triggered abandonment of status. Regardless, utilizing provincial healthcare when you're not a resident of the province is considered abuse of the system and can trigger a bill. Had people received a bill before they made a permanent move out of the province I believe they could absolutely contest it as the requirements are to be a resident of the province which factors in ties to the province itself, not whatever immigration status a foreign country considers you to be. On top of this, we've neglected to consider commuter aliens too, they should get healthcare as they're allowed to be a resident of a province and commute to a job in the US.

 

EI isn't a residence based benefit like healthcare, so that one isn't affected at all if you're still paying into it. And yes, I'm pretty grumpy at the fact of not having public healthcare given I'm still paying taxes to BC, but it's a price for living in the land of the free(tm), and fortunately my husband's insurance covers me.

 

If one wants their provincial healthcare back, switch your driver's license and apply for a health card, and switch to Canadian plates...the province will be all too happy to sort you out, but given how US immigration law treats green card holders claiming foreign domicile, that won't go too well for one's US Immigration status. The province however, would not care.

 

Also a word of caution regarding using extended health benefits provided by a Canadian employer when not covered by provincial health care, the insurance provider may have in the small print that you need to be covered by provincial healthcare to be covered for extended health.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Kai G. Llewellyn

[From_CAN_2_US 1,106]

On 3/2/2022 at 11:20 PM, Ontarkie said:

 

Even if you continue to pay into OHIP working for a Canadian employer you are still not allowed to use the health care system. Now most employment type of insurance are for the extras you get. They are not full coverage they are just that extras. Now if your employer has dental you sure can use that because health Canada or OHIP in this case does not cover it to begin with. 

I never said I am entitled to OHIP because I am employed by Canadian employer. One is entitled to OHIP when one is a resident of Ontario. If you endorse the visa but don’t move (still live in Ontario) you are still entitled to OHIP. This is what I have been informed by Service Ontario and I asked specifically.

 

As for employers health plan / dental. It only applies if you are again a resident of Ontario, which you are if you live in Ontario, even after endorsement of visa. 
 

The key here is whether you have permanently moved or not.

 

To be clear, I work for a Canadian employer remotely in the US. I have moved permanently to the US. I do not live in Canada. So I am not entitled to OHIP or my insurance from my employer. If I turn back to Canada today 3 weeks after I moved, I would not be able to enjoy OHIP, because I permanently moved.

 

But some people do it gradually, they still have a home in Ontario, a job there, and so live there move things slowly. They maintain their OHIP even after endorsement. If they have employer’s insurance that can enjoy that as well until they permanently move.

Edited March 4, 2022 by From_CAN_2_US

[From_CAN_2_US 1,106]

On 3/2/2022 at 11:20 PM, Ontarkie said:

This 183 days does not apply to ppl who are making the move permanently. Not calling them to tell them you moved still does not mean you are covered. 

Yes, I agree with this and that’s what I said in my post too.

[From_CAN_2_US 1,106]

On 3/2/2022 at 11:20 PM, Ontarkie said:

. GST, baby bonus, provincial disability all gone. Even though those are things that you should be able to get as it is supposed to be part of your taxes that you pay but nope all gone. Ppl have called canceled the all these things, still the checks come in the mail and later on when the right hand actually sees what the left is doing the bills come in saying pay it all back. Funny how they have your address and everything after all this time but they sure kept sending checks. They all go back to the date you crossed. 

I can’t speak to any of this as I don’t claim any of these benefits and so haven’t checked on them. But I imagine again, it ends when you PERMANENTLY move.

[From_CAN_2_US 1,106]

On 3/3/2022 at 1:54 AM, Kai G. Llewellyn said:

Canada and its provinces shouldn't really care about your foreign immigration status. One could get a work visa to the UK and that wouldn't automatically cancel one's Canadian healthcare. It comes down to the details regarding one's provincial residency. If you have activated an immigrant visa but immediately return to your province and decide not to move to the US in the end then you'll still be covered for your healthcare. It's at the point that you permanently move out of the province, and various things trigger that, such as changing your drivers license, filing taxes with the CRA as nonresident (and part of that you provide your departure date) and no longer paying provincial tax, among other things. And as mentioned that is also usually triggered by the call to the province that you have left. In terms of when your provincial residency ceases it is at the point of a permanent move and not when your foreign immigration status changes. I've yet to see an actual direct documented case on here where one was sent a bill for medical treatment they received after having the visa endorsed but before they moved, or a case where utilizing public healthcare was found out by CBP (outside of them maybe finding a health card) and triggered abandonment of status. Regardless, utilizing provincial healthcare when you're not a resident of the province is considered abuse of the system and can trigger a bill. Had people received a bill before they made a permanent move out of the province I believe they could absolutely contest it as the requirements are to be a resident of the province which factors in ties to the province itself, not whatever immigration status a foreign country considers you to be. On top of this, we've neglected to consider commuter aliens too, they should get healthcare as they're allowed to be a resident of a province and commute to a job in the US.

 

EI isn't a residence based benefit like healthcare, so that one isn't affected at all if you're still paying into it. And yes, I'm pretty grumpy at the fact of not having public healthcare given I'm still paying taxes to BC, but it's a price for living in the land of the free(tm), and fortunately my husband's insurance covers me.

 

If one wants their provincial healthcare back, switch your driver's license and apply for a health card, and switch to Canadian plates...the province will be all too happy to sort you out, but given how US immigration law treats green card holders claiming foreign domicile, that won't go too well for one's US Immigration status. The province however, would not care.

 

Also a word of caution regarding using extended health benefits provided by a Canadian employer when not covered by provincial health care, the insurance provider may have in the small print that you need to be covered by provincial healthcare to be covered for extended health.

 

This, in entirety, is my understanding too, from all my calls to Canadian Govt agencies and from what they have on their websites.

Edited March 4, 2022 by From_CAN_2_US

[Ontarkie 14,213]

1 hour ago, From_CAN_2_US said:

I can’t speak to any of this as I don’t claim any of these benefits and so haven’t checked on them. But I imagine again, it ends when you PERMANENTLY move.

They end when you activate the visa. They do not care if you are not making the move that day. Just as K1's are not US residents or GC holders the day they cross but you can be your bottom dollar they stop those payments the day you cross. I crossed on May 8, bey bey GST and Baby bonus. That was as a K1 I was no where near being a permanent resident but that did not stop them. 

 

The websites  does not have anything on ppl immigrating outside of Canada. They go on and on about temporary situations, snowbirds and students. Just like the misinformation line when you call you always get the right person who actually knows that they are talking about. They don't exactly get these calls everyday and just go as far as reading the same thing off their own site. Which only talks about temporary moves like snowbirds.

 

The search functions on the forums are not the best with multiple server transfers but there are many case on here where ppl had to repay. 

[Ontarkie 14,213]

1 hour ago, From_CAN_2_US said:

I never said I am entitled to OHIP because I am employed by Canadian employer. One is entitled to OHIP when one is a resident of Ontario. If you endorse the visa but don’t move (still live in Ontario) you are still entitled to OHIP. This is what I have been informed by Service Ontario and I asked specifically.

 

As for employers health plan / dental. It only applies if you are again a resident of Ontario, which you are if you live in Ontario, even after endorsement of visa. 
 

The key here is whether you have permanently moved or not.

 

To be clear, I work for a Canadian employer remotely in the US. I have moved permanently to the US. I do not live in Canada. So I am not entitled to OHIP or my insurance from my employer. If I turn back to Canada today 3 weeks after I moved, I would not be able to enjoy OHIP, because I permanently moved.

 

But some people do it gradually, they still have a home in Ontario, a job there, and so live there move things slowly. They maintain their OHIP even after endorsement. If they have employer’s insurance that can enjoy that as well until they permanently move.

Except by activating the Visa you are declaring that you are moving permanently. You cannot activate the visa and say I'm not a US resident as doing so will and can cause you to lose US PR or like the recent case of someone who's wife was not allowed to get her visa endorsed until she actually wants to move. You can't have it both ways. 

 

That is the whole point of activating your US visa. You declare you are moving permanently. Finishing things up in Canada before you complete the move is not being a resident of Canada. They of course can't say you can't come back you never lose your Canadian citizenship. But when it comes to activating/endorsing the visa that right there is saying you moved permanently. 

 

Sorry when I used the word you I didn't mean you in specific.