Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[Mike E 11,741]

1 hour ago, millefleur said:

If it's up to Europe to stand up to this, then why are we still arming Ukraine?

Looks to me like most of the arms are coming from the EU.  $350M from the USA won’t buy much.  
 

The USA is hoping to avoid Russia or Belarus attacking a NATO country.  If that happens then the USA gets dragged into this.  
 

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Also, how can Europe stand up to Russia?

The EU countries are free to send boots to the Ukraine.  If Russia attacks those countries on their territory as a result,  even one of those EU countries happens to be a NATO country, I doubt the USA would be obligated to defend it. 

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I'm really curious what that solution is.

The solution is for the EU + UK and other European countries not aligned with Russia to defend Ukraine.  Russia has 200,000 troops. Europe has enough troops to repel the invasion. 

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How would Russia roll tanks past a bunch of NATO countries exactly, are they just going to abandon Article 5?

If it is an provoked counter attack, due to European countries attacking Russian forces in Belarus, Ukraine, and/or a Russia I don’t see why the USA is obligated  to get involved.  
 

I doubt there is majority  among the American people who supporting sending  American boots to the ground of Europe.  

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 Either disband NATO and the US says Europe is no longer its problem or have NATO exist and Europe is the US's problem.

I prefer the former as the rest of NATO is not doing its share and even if it did this isn’t our problem any more.    
 

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Russian tanks will not roll to France

There is no reason why they won’t roll up to France.  If the EU felt otherwise it wouldn’t be sending weapons to Ukraine and ratcheting up sanctions, increasing defense spending, etc. 

 

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you're quite mistaken as to the cause of the invasion

The cause of the invasion is paranoia: the fear by at least one Russian that the west is going to make an unprovoked attack Russia.  This is not possible given Russia’s nuclear capabilities.  
 

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and what Russia's scope of interest is. I recommend watching the video I posted above which makes everything crystal clear.

The logic of the video makes sense of Russia if didn’t have the most nuclear weapons.  
Since Russia does, the video makes no sense to me.  
 

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There's no secret plan that isn't known, it's all been laid out on the table very clearly now. In fact, my point was the US supposedly had pitch perfect intelligence about this the entire time. If that was the case, what exactly was our plan? Because it seems to me like the plan is "let's continue arming Ukraine but not get directly involved because Russia has nukes."

That is exactly the plan. 
 

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So, Ukraine being backed with no nukes at all (in fact,

Ukraine foolishly gave up its nukes.  
 

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NATO and the US have specifically said multiple times they won't actually defend it) goes against a nuclear power, but not just a nuclear power, the country with the largest arsenal and most powerful nukes on Earth. This is a plan the US and Europe considers to be sound? It's madness.

The USA isn’t going to launch nukes if the Baltic states or Poland fall to Russia.  I don’t think USA is going to put boots on the ground to protect those countries either.  Neither will France or the UK.  The UK and France will definitely defend Germany with boots and the USA probably will.  
 

The UK, France, and USA won’t use nukes unless their core territory is violated.  Russia can’t threaten the core territory of UK or USA.  

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Anyone who thinks nukes aren't real or won't be dropped are living in dreamland. The world has never been closer to a nuclear war than right now

The Cuban missile crisis would like a word.  
 

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and all the US can do is send weapons??? Where is the diplomacy and cool headed realpolitik of the Cold War?

Elections have consequences.  The way Biden left Afghanistan emboldened Putin. 
 

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I'm absolutely astonished how people seem to have forgotten the entire legacy of the Cold War (which saved the world multiple times from blowing up thanks to diplomacy)

MAD, a  failed coup in the USSR, the collapse of the Soviet economy, and increased military spending in the USA were more important to winning the Cold War.  The German response to the invasion of Ukraine reflects this.  
 

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and we're just jumping into arming countries to fight against nuclear powers and we're sitting back and not even remotely attempting diplomacy.

What would the west negotiate? Ceding n Ukraine to Russia? Why would Russia stop there? As the video shows, Russia won’t be sated until all former Warsaw Pact and Soviet countries are annexed by Russia or ruled by Putin puppets.  
 

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This is a global embarrassment and Europe is doing nothing at all to help

Does help mean capitulation?

 

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either, despite that it's happening right in their backyard. Germany, who appeared to be the sane one in the room before, is now also arming Ukraine.

And arming itself. As it should have done decades ago when it was clear America’s enthusiasm for European adventure was waning.  It could count on the USA being ruled by Democrat presidents who defied American opinion and who were all too willing to get sucked into European wars.  But now the USA has Biden and Biden has said publicly and repeatedly that the USA will sit this one out.  
 

America cannot police the world any more.  It has its hands full in Pacific and needs to figure out how to hold Hawaii and Guam in the coming decades.  America should double down on Pacific rim alliances.  
 

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My observation is that after wars in Europe, borders change. If nuclear war happens, then there won't be a Europe to rebuild.

Cest la vie. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Mike E

[millefleur 5,047]

21 minutes ago, Mike E said:

The USA isn’t going to launch nukes if the Baltic states or Poland fall to Russia.  I don’t think USA is going to put boots on the ground to protect those countries either.  Neither will France or the UK.  The UK and France will definitely defend Germany with boots and the USA probably will.  

So you're saying that NATO this entire time has a been a huge lie and the US never intended to ever come to the aid of anyone who signed the treaty? I wonder how the NATO countries missed that. Is your view that they're all just being duped by the US, and if that's the case, why does NATO exist at all? To just appear like it cares/wants to protect and ally with Europe? NATO exists at all because....???

 

21 minutes ago, Mike E said:

What would the west negotiate? Ceding n Ukraine to Russia? Why would Russia stop there? As the video shows, Russia won’t be sated until all former Warsaw Pact and Soviet countries are annexed by Russia or ruled by Putin puppets.

Maybe time to negotiate the disbanding of NATO altogether since you yourself seem to think it's just the US lying/duping Europe and has no purpose anymore. Russia would be very pleased with such a suggestion, trust me.

Edited February 27, 2022 by millefleur

[Boiler 45,715]

Ukraine could double it’s forces if it could only get past its own systemic misogyny 

[millefleur 5,047]

For those who don't think the NATO is sending out absurd mixed signals right now to Ukraine, let's just take a look at what the official NATO website says right now:

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

 

NATO has taken collective defence measures on several occasions, including in response to the situation in Syria and the Russian attack on Ukraine.

 

So, we're "taking collective defense measures" like they're a member but NATO but they're not a member of NATO so that's why we're not sending troops? What's even more baffling about this statement is that it is specifically listed under the headline "Collective defence - Article 5" but UKRAINE IS NOT A NATO MEMBER. 😵

 

Can anyone make sense of this doublespeak whatsoever? According to NATO's own treaty, the countries in NATO already are already protected by being members. So, what is the purpose of this? If Russia crosses into a NATO country, Article 5 is triggered and Russia knows that. It is actually the whole point of what NATO is. So, why then is NATO acting like Ukraine is a member when it's not?

 

And if we take @Mike E's analysis that NATO are just a bunch of liars and have no intentions of actually defending countries like Poland or the Baltics, then NATO is just doing nothing right now but posturing to and duping its members. Can anyone be trusted or believed in the world anymore?

Edited February 27, 2022 by millefleur

[Mike E 11,741]

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

So you're saying that NATO this entire time has a been a huge lie and the US never intended to ever come to the aid of anyone who signed the treaty?

Not the entire time.  Until the USSR  fell it was real.  The reality of the USA’s willingness to defend Europe has waned.  Trump made it explicit: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/21/donald-trump-america-automatically-nato-allies-under-attack

 

Biden is all but saying the USA won’t defend NATO allies if the Ukraine invasion brings in those allies.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/21/donald-trump-america-automatically-nato-allies-under-attack
 

“Donald Trump has suggested that under his leadership America would not necessarily come to the aid of a Nato ally under attack, saying he would first consider how much they have contributed to the alliance.”

 

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

I wonder how the NATO countries missed that.

I don’t know.  Two major failures by the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan, coupled with words and actions  from Trump and Biden over the past 5 should have made it clear by now.  

 

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

Is your view that they're all just being duped by the US, and if that's the case, why does NATO exist at all?

They’ve been told by Trump and Biden for years what the new rules are.  This is why Germany is rearming. 

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

To just appear like it cares/wants to protect and ally with Europe? NATO exists at all because....???

It exists because even if the USA isn’t in it, non-Russian aligned countries in Europe need a defense pact.  
 

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

Maybe time to negotiate the disbanding of NATO altogether since you yourself seem to think it's just the US lying/duping Europe and has no purpose anymore.

After the Ukraine crisis has resolved the USA should definitely negotiate a time table to withdraw from NATO to give Germany time to rearm, acquire a nuclear deterrent, and secure a new supply of fossil fuels (or bring back fission power).  America, Canada, and/or France will help with the latter 
 

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

Russia would be very pleased with such a suggestion, trust me.

A rearmed Germany with nukes? I think not.   
 

 

[millefleur 5,047]

3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

It exists because even if the USA isn’t in it, non-Russian aligned countries in Europe need a defense pact.

Why don't they just disband NATO and make a new defense pact then? Surely this had to come up in talks before and surely someone (cough the US/Washington DC cough) kept pushing for NATO to exist. And the US has shown no actual interest in ever leaving or disbanding NATO except for Trump criticizing it.

 

One of the major reasons this war going on right is because the US kept saying that Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO someday. So....explain that one? If this whole "NATO shouldn't exist" thing is supposedly so obvious to both the US and Europe, why was the US insisting one day that Ukraine can join it?

 

[Boiler 45,715]

There has been talk of an EU military but seems impractical

[Dashinka 24,628]

1 hour ago, millefleur said:

Why don't they just disband NATO and make a new defense pact then? Surely this had to come up in talks before and surely someone (cough the US/Washington DC cough) kept pushing for NATO to exist. And the US has shown no actual interest in ever leaving or disbanding NATO except for Trump criticizing it.

 

One of the major reasons this war going on right is because the US kept saying that Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO someday. So....explain that one? If this whole "NATO shouldn't exist" thing is supposedly so obvious to both the US and Europe, why was the US insisting one day that Ukraine can join it?

 

Honestly, I never understood why the US continued with NATO once the USSR fell and the Warsaw Pact dissolved.

[Mike E 11,741]

2 hours ago, millefleur said:

Why don't they just disband NATO and make a new defense pact then?

Disbanding makes it easier for other members to not join the new pact.  Regardless I don’t care if the NATO brand survives or not. 
 

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why was the US insisting one day that Ukraine can join it?

If the USA did say Ukraine  can join I suspect this is as analogous as saying Taiwan can join China.  China thus far hasn’t interpreted the USA’s official One China policy as an invitation to invade Taiwan.
 

Whereas Russia has confused  words as future action.

 

Blaming the USA for Russian atrocities would be analogous to a boss knee capping a former employee  because a competitor expressed interest is hiring the former employee.  It isn’t rational.  

Edited February 27, 2022 by Mike E

[iwannaplay54 985]

18 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Before anything more, need to send Kommie Harris over there to determine "root causes."

Because the clowns pulling Bidementia's strings are uncommonly incompetent.

Totally reserved for anyone who can cross our southern border.

So Bidementia can brag (SOTO speech) that his domestic policies work overseas, too!   

#MAGA

#Putin/Trump 2024

Edited February 28, 2022 by iwannaplay54

[Mike E 11,741]

2 hours ago, iwannaplay54 said:

#MAGA

#Putin/Trump 2024

Is there a link to the audio of this alleged radio interview?

 

edit found it: 

 

https://archive.vn/eDBms

 

“PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, what went wrong was a rigged election and what went wrong is a candidate that shouldn’t be there and a man that has no concept of what he’s doing. I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, “This is genius.” Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful.

So, Putin is now saying, “It’s independent,” a large section of Ukraine. I said, “How smart is that?” And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force… We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy… I know him very well. Very, very well.

 

Substantially different than what you said.   

Edited February 28, 2022 by Mike E

[iwannaplay54 985]

14 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Is there a link to the audio of this alleged radio interview?

 

edit found it: 

 

https://archive.vn/eDBms

 

“PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, what went wrong was a rigged election and what went wrong is a candidate that shouldn’t be there and a man that has no concept of what he’s doing. I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, “This is genius.” Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful.

So, Putin is now saying, “It’s independent,” a large section of Ukraine. I said, “How smart is that?” And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force… We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy… I know him very well. Very, very well.

 

Substantially different than what you said.   

It’s exactly what I said comrade

[Mike E 11,741]

Even Snopes disagrees:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-putin-savvy-genius/
 

“Trump referring to Putin as “savvy” and “genius” does not necessarily mean that the 45th president condoned the invasion of Ukraine. ”

To paraphrase LBJ, when you’ve lost Snopes you’ve lost the argument. 

[iwannaplay54 985]

Just now, Mike E said:

Even Snopes disagrees:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-putin-savvy-genius/
 

“Trump referring to Putin as “savvy” and “genius” does not necessarily mean that the 45th president condoned the invasion of Ukraine. ”

To paraphrase LBJ, when you’ve lost Snopes you’ve lost the argument. 

It doesn’t now.  After his remarks got noticed Ivan changed his tone.

[iwannaplay54 985]

6 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Even Snopes disagrees:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-putin-savvy-genius/
 

“Trump referring to Putin as “savvy” and “genius” does not necessarily mean that the 45th president condoned the invasion of Ukraine. ”

To paraphrase LBJ, when you’ve lost Snopes you’ve lost the argument. 

It doesn’t now.  After his remarks got noticed Ivan changed his tone.

 

There.  All better?