Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[Boiler 45,742]

None of this makes much sense, mind you I can think of quite a few historical scenarios that made little sense as well.

 

For example if you really wanted to take over you would first make sure your forces were where they needed to be not make the announcement and have hundreds of miles to travel when a fairly small force could impede you and you are grossly outnumbered.

 

I have seen all sorts of weird possibilities discussed, time will tell. I am unclear how cohesive Wagner is as a force. I doubt Prigozhin had that much control.

[millefleur 5,047]

What I've heard is that it was never really meant to be a coup. It was just a dispute over contracts/money that got taken way out of hand. MoD wanted to rope Wagner into the regular forces and Prigo got mad about that. Seems like an overreaction but this is Russia we are talking about. I don't think it was staged but maybe Prigo had pulled Luka into it behind the scenes and planned to just bow out one he got what he wanted. Putin has been living in a bubble (there was a leak a few weeks about about how oblivious he was at the current state of the war) and I think between Prigo's petty money issue and getting fed up with the Kremlin's oblivion, he just decided to use force to get what he wanted.

 

Prigo has also become an unusual class of oligarch: he has been on the frontlines and has been part of the war in its most intense parts. He's not just sitting around in a mansion watching things from a distance. He was probably getting annoyed that the rest of Putin's circle is so far removed from the stuff he is in the thick of and just wanted to slap some sense into them, while also revealing the current fragility of the Russian state.

 

The fact that Putin gave an address calling him a traitor but then seems OK with him just exiting stage left to Belarus is indeed very strange. But I don't see where the calling him a traitor fits into the "it was staged" narrative: it's a slippery slope for Putin because Prigo is popular with the people for aforementioned reasons for being shoulder-to-shoulder with the combatants and also actually putting his life on the line. Putin maybe freaked out but then realized turning a popular figure like that into a martyr would only further undermine his government. If it was staged, I would say only by Prigo and Luka, Putin genuinely seemed like he was caught off guard. 

[Pooky 3,821]

5 hours ago, millefleur said:

What I've heard is that it was never really meant to be a coup. It was just a dispute over contracts/money that got taken way out of hand. MoD wanted to rope Wagner into the regular forces and Prigo got mad about that. Seems like an overreaction but this is Russia we are talking about. I don't think it was staged but maybe Prigo had pulled Luka into it behind the scenes and planned to just bow out one he got what he wanted.

My understanding is that he wanted the Defence Minister, Sergei Shoigu, and his First Deputy and Chief of the General Staff, Valery Gerasimov, gone do not providing the Wagner Group adequate logistical support.

 

There are also disputed reports that Wagner Group personnel were attacked by Russian forces on Friday. That may go some way to explaining why Prigozhin is still breathing.

 

It will be interesting to see which of the major players has an accident first.

[TBoneTX 45,652]

In Honor Of Lives Lost In The Sub, Biden Announces Another $5 Billion For Ukraine

 

https://babylonbee.com/news/in-honor-of-lives-lost-in-the-sub-biden-announces-another-5-billion-for-ukraine

[TBoneTX 45,652]

Zelensky Admits He Already Spent The Next 3 Accounting Errors

 

KYIV — After it was revealed that an accounting error inadvertently sent another $6.2 billion to Ukraine, President Zelensky admitted he has already spent all the money from the accounting error as well as the money from the next three accounting errors.  [...]

 

https://babylonbee.com/news/zelensky-admits-he-already-spent-the-next-3-accounting-errors

[millefleur 5,047]

33 minutes ago, Pooky said:

My understanding is that he wanted the Defence Minister, Sergei Shoigu, and his First Deputy and Chief of the General Staff, Valery Gerasimov, gone do not providing the Wagner Group adequate logistical support.

 

Yes, that too. So basically gripe upon gripe but rumors are swirling that discussing Shoigu and Gerasimov did not even come up during the "negotiation" so we just have to wait and see what happens. Nobody knows for sure yet, but if the Kremlin did not do a staff reshuffle that would be even more bizarre. Prigo said himself he has beef with Shoigu and Gerasmiov but not Putin himself (hence why it's more of a rebellion than a coup, if we take his word on that.)

 

33 minutes ago, Pooky said:

There are also disputed reports that Wagner Group personnel were attacked by Russian forces on Friday. That may go some way to explaining why Prigozhin is still breathing.

All those around me believe this was a false flag. Reasonable people, too, not the kind of people who just call everything a false flag. It's all so confusing so who knows at this point, maybe there was some minor bust up between Wagner and Russian forces or Wagner themselves "started it"....we will probably never know for sure unless there is a leak. What we do know is that the reason the Wagner rebellion was successful at all is because local authorities and other armed personnel did not fire on them once they started. 

 

33 minutes ago, Pooky said:

It will be interesting to see which of the major players has an accident first.

All bets right now are on Prigo meeting a sudden mysterious end during his retirement in Belarus. Probably not poisoned tea because he was Putin's chef after all, the guy has got to be hyper paranoid around food and drink lol. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by millefleur

[Dashinka 24,647]

5 hours ago, millefleur said:

Yes, that too. So basically gripe upon gripe but rumors are swirling that discussing Shoigu and Gerasimov did not even come up during the "negotiation" so we just have to wait and see what happens. Nobody knows for sure yet, but if the Kremlin did not do a staff reshuffle that would be even more bizarre. Prigo said himself he has beef with Shoigu and Gerasmiov but not Putin himself (hence why it's more of a rebellion than a coup, if we take his word on that.)

 

All those around me believe this was a false flag. Reasonable people, too, not the kind of people who just call everything a false flag. It's all so confusing so who knows at this point, maybe there was some minor bust up between Wagner and Russian forces or Wagner themselves "started it"....we will probably never know for sure unless there is a leak. What we do know is that the reason the Wagner rebellion was successful at all is because local authorities and other armed personnel did not fire on them once they started. 

 

All bets right now are on Prigo meeting a sudden mysterious end during his retirement in Belarus. Probably not poisoned tea because he was Putin's chef after all, the guy has got to be hyper paranoid around food and drink lol. 

It is interesting how many folks in the media try to spin this as something driven due to the "unwavering" support the West is giving to the the oligarchs and totalitarians in Ukraine, when in the end, it is a mafia like dispute between Capos and the the big boss.  I tend to agree, Lukashenko will more than likely look the other way when Prigo meets an mysterious end.

[millefleur 5,047]

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

It is interesting how many folks in the media try to spin this as something driven due to the "unwavering" support the West is giving to the the oligarchs and totalitarians in Ukraine, when in the end, it is a mafia like dispute between Capos and the the big boss.  I tend to agree, Lukashenko will more than likely look the other way when Prigo meets an mysterious end.

The whole thing is such a confusing SNAFU that it's really hard to call anything yet. The video of Shoigu that came out today is supposedly old, but if the Kremlin is releasing it, seems like they aren't exactly planning to kick the guy out. Dust will be settling on this matter for some days if not weeks to come.

[Boiler 45,742]

Prigozhin best bet is to head to Florida and apply for asylum.

[Boiler 45,742]

 

[TBoneTX 45,652]

A very interesting theory is in here.  Comments?

What the Hell Just Happened in Russia?

 

"When you strike at a king, you must kill him," Ralph Waldo Emerson warned.  But what if the "king" being struck at in Russia's weird weekend mutiny wasn't actually Russian strongman Vladimir Putin?  [...]

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2023/06/26/what-the-hell-just-happened-in-russia-n1706298

[millefleur 5,047]

48 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

A very interesting theory is in here.  Comments?

 

People in Russia are equally baffled now. Nobody understands what the heck is going on. There was a weird Putin speech that was hyped up today and then it ended up being a nothingburger that clarified nothing, only repeated what had already been said.

 

There are some wild theories swirling that the video was edited/tweaked (maybe Putin is being puppeteered and lead around like a blind man by his own cabinet members?), that another meeting will take place between Putin and Luka....honestly who knows at this point. To be a fly on the wall of the Kremlin right now....

[TBoneTX 45,652]

2 hours ago, millefleur said:

maybe Putin is being puppeteered and lead around like a blind man by his own cabinet members?

Imitating Bidementia...

[Dashinka 24,647]

On 6/26/2023 at 8:05 PM, millefleur said:

 

People in Russia are equally baffled now. Nobody understands what the heck is going on. There was a weird Putin speech that was hyped up today and then it ended up being a nothingburger that clarified nothing, only repeated what had already been said.

 

There are some wild theories swirling that the video was edited/tweaked (maybe Putin is being puppeteered and lead around like a blind man by his own cabinet members?), that another meeting will take place between Putin and Luka....honestly who knows at this point. To be a fly on the wall of the Kremlin right now....

It is amazing how little anyone really knows what is going on.  I read a story Saturday or Sunday that said Putin would not take Prigo's call, then another story yesterday that said the exact opposite.  If hisotry tells us anything, this is how mobsters act.

 

Also, here is a little bit on the totalitarian Zelensky.

 

 

[Dashinka 24,647]

Hmm, apparently someone Zelensky does not like.  Now Lira is a USC, but I have not heard ABlinken, or KJP, or Kirby come out and say his is being illegally detained like they did for a certain someone in another country.

 

Detaining Gonzalo Lira: Another blow to the freedom of press in Ukraine

 

The Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) arrested Gonzalo Lira, a US-Chilean national residing in Kharkiv, on suspicions of harbouring pro-Russian sentiments. This marks the second time Lira has been apprehended by the SBU. Lira, an author and filmmaker who relocated to Kharkiv years ago and married a Ukrainian, was initially detained in April 2022 but was released after a week without charges. He was subsequently instructed not to leave the city and prohibited from discussing his arrest.

 

As reported by Ukrainian media, the SBU's statement accuses Lira of publicly justifying Russia's armed aggression, denying or glorifying supposed Russian war crimes, and undermining Ukraine's top military and political leadership and Defence Forces.

 

On May 5, the SBU website published a statement in Ukrainian titled "SBU detained a foreign blogger in Kharkiv who denied the crimes of the Russian Federation and insulted Ukrainian defenders." The statement alleges that Lira was among the first to support Russian invaders and glorify their war crimes. It also accuses him of discrediting Ukraine's military-political leadership and Defense Forces. The SBU claims that Lira filmed provocative videos featuring Ukrainian defenders and insulted them.

 

https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html