Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[Dashinka 24,479]

8 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

This struck me as very interesting, with some ideas that I haven't seen elsewhere.  Your comments?

 

https://amgreatness.com/2022/03/30/cutting-through-the-noise-in-ukraine/

Yes, most of the Western media has neglected to delve into the whole corruption and nationalism that is present in Ukraine, and very few talk about the war that has been ongoing in the Donbass region for the past eight years rife with ethnic cleansing.  Then of course we have the sympathetic figure of Zelenskyy practically begging others to come to his rescue.  Now overall, this does not excuse the needless destruction that Putin has authorized, but the fact is the Ukraine is governed by a very corrupt government and has integrated nationalist groups into its military (I am curious if the Azov Battalion was trained in Poland by NATO), despite the fact that Zelenskyy and his benefactor are Jewish.  Would we be in this current geopolitical predicament if the US/EU had not orchestrated the coup in 2014 of a duly elected Ukrainian president. 

[millefleur 5,046]

Pretty weird to see how the headlines around Zelensky/Ukraine looked prior to the invasion compared to now. There were also a bunch of pretty disturbing documentaries about Ukraine made by BBC, Vice and other mainstream outlets showing the internal problems the country was struggling with for the past 8 years. I find the whole "leading on" words by the EU and NATO really disingenuous. They should've just told Ukraine point blank: clean up your house first and then we'll talk about membership.

 

 

[TBoneTX 45,251]

Interesting, but perhaps not surprising.

Putin Clueless and Misinformed About Russia's Invasion of Ukraine, Says US Intelligence – RedState

[millefleur 5,046]

I thought this was interesting.

 

Americans’ views on the war reveal a striking generational divide

 

Read more here: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/04/02/americans-views-on-the-war-reveal-a-striking-generational-divide

[Boiler 45,445]

 

[millefleur 5,046]

I'm glad somebody said it.

Nobody needs to see dead bodies on Twitter

The immediacy of the Ukraine war – with communication brokered by smartphones and social media updates – has managed to keep the horrors being perpetrated by Russian invaders at the forefront of people’s minds, even at a time of shortened attention spans. 

More than a month on from the first Russian foot on Ukrainian ground, we are learning of new atrocities and recoiling in horror at the war crimes that the Russian army under Vladimir Putin has been accused of. We are able to do so because of the alarming, hyperreal images of the aftermath pumped through social media feeds. It’s a real reminder of what’s going on – the 21st-century ghost of Banquo, constantly at the end of our thumb swipes.

 

Yet while a gory procession of pictures of dead bodies remind us of what is happening on Europe’s doorstep, how ethical is it share the grim gallery of images?

 

Read more: https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/04/nobody-needs-to-see-dead-bodies-on-twitter

[TBoneTX 45,251]

This article taught me a lot:

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/04/the_first_digital_war.html

Comments about it?

[millefleur 5,046]

1 hour ago, TBoneTX said:

This article taught me a lot:

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/04/the_first_digital_war.html

Comments about it?

So the point of the article is let's condemn everyone who is Russian because they should know better because the internet exists now? He writes: "For the first time in history, the victim of the aggression makes sure that every Russian will soon google what their loved one has done in Ukraine." - So, by that logic, if someone's father or brother is a rapist or a criminal, they inherit that guilt merely because they're related? Or what exactly? What is he hoping comes of that? He never says. Also, bold of him to assume there will be some free, open internet in Russia where people will be able to "google" that info.

 

Also, what military tribunals? Does anyone actually think there's going to be some kind of Nuremberg style trial? That was only possible Germany was conquered and occupied. Is Russia going to be conquered and occupied? The UN cannot prosecute war crimes. Russia nor the US itself is a member of the International Criminal Court. The reason the US doesn't want to be a member is because then they too could be tried for war crimes. How convenient to just not be a member when it suits you. Seems like it's not just Russia taking advantage of that. If Ukraine has their own tribunal, how exactly will that be just? It would be like if the police department was judge, jury and executioner over every suspect they arrest. I thought Americans valued the idea of innocent until proven guilty and right to fair trial by an unbiased jury? Is that not something that should be applied to everyone, even the worst criminals, so that we can know the right outcome was reached?

 

I'm sick of all the WW2 comparisons from all sides. This isn't WW2. It's a different war, different circumstances, different stakes. Putin isn't Hitler or Stalin, Zelensky isn't Churchill and there won't be a Nuremberg or any other trial where actual Russian leaders or decision makers will be brought into the room to face justice. What is more likely to happen is Putin will end up like an Assad, isolated but still in his little bubble of power until he either dies or retires (or less likely kicked out.) Except he'll be an Assad with nuclear weapons. Nobody knows how this war ends but it won't be with Ukraine (and NATO) taking Moscow and partitioning a conquered Russia.

[TBoneTX 45,251]

Great response, ma'am!

[millefleur 5,046]

42 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

Great response, ma'am!

😊 I have to admit I stole the Assad comparison from this article.

What Assad can teach Putin about surviving international isolation

The Syrian regime has been partially rehabilitated, and it doesn't even have Russia's natural resources to bargain with.

 

Read more here: https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/04/bashar-al-assad-syria-vladimir-putin-russia-international-isolation

[TBoneTX 45,251]

1 hour ago, millefleur said:

I have to admit I stole the Assad comparison from this article.

Plagiarism, si ma'am!  Reported!!!  

[Dashinka 24,479]

12 hours ago, millefleur said:

So the point of the article is let's condemn everyone who is Russian because they should know better because the internet exists now? He writes: "For the first time in history, the victim of the aggression makes sure that every Russian will soon google what their loved one has done in Ukraine." - So, by that logic, if someone's father or brother is a rapist or a criminal, they inherit that guilt merely because they're related? Or what exactly? What is he hoping comes of that? He never says. Also, bold of him to assume there will be some free, open internet in Russia where people will be able to "google" that info.

 

Also, what military tribunals? Does anyone actually think there's going to be some kind of Nuremberg style trial? That was only possible Germany was conquered and occupied. Is Russia going to be conquered and occupied? The UN cannot prosecute war crimes. Russia nor the US itself is a member of the International Criminal Court. The reason the US doesn't want to be a member is because then they too could be tried for war crimes. How convenient to just not be a member when it suits you. Seems like it's not just Russia taking advantage of that. If Ukraine has their own tribunal, how exactly will that be just? It would be like if the police department was judge, jury and executioner over every suspect they arrest. I thought Americans valued the idea of innocent until proven guilty and right to fair trial by an unbiased jury? Is that not something that should be applied to everyone, even the worst criminals, so that we can know the right outcome was reached?

 

I'm sick of all the WW2 comparisons from all sides. This isn't WW2. It's a different war, different circumstances, different stakes. Putin isn't Hitler or Stalin, Zelensky isn't Churchill and there won't be a Nuremberg or any other trial where actual Russian leaders or decision makers will be brought into the room to face justice. What is more likely to happen is Putin will end up like an Assad, isolated but still in his little bubble of power until he either dies or retires (or less likely kicked out.) Except he'll be an Assad with nuclear weapons. Nobody knows how this war ends but it won't be with Ukraine (and NATO) taking Moscow and partitioning a conquered Russia.

Great points, and no one seems to talk about the war crimes committed by the Ukraine as this whole thing unfolded.  I am getting tired of the god like status that is being put on Zelenskyy, sure, Russia is the current aggressor in this episode of the ongoing war, but Zelenskyy is no saint.  To answer the question at the top of this thread, the Europeans and the US are rushing to defend Ukraine as cover for the meddling they have been doing to simply piss Putin off.  Russia has long memories, and the 2014 coup of a duly elected President of the Ukraine that everyone overlooks, orchestrated by the EU and US simply because Yanukovych would not lick the boots of the EU or Barack Obama was the match that lit this whole thing.  Can't blame the EU and US though.

[millefleur 5,046]

Sanctions update. I don't get why this wasn't done sooner. Sanctions that directly hit Russian government officials and their families make a lot more sense to me than the ones that just hurt ordinary Russians who have no say in this whatsoever. Not sure if anything will come of it but let's see what happens.

 

 

[Dashinka 24,479]

1 hour ago, millefleur said:

Sanctions update. I don't get why this wasn't done sooner. Sanctions that directly hit Russian government officials and their families make a lot more sense to me than the ones that just hurt ordinary Russians who have no say in this whatsoever. Not sure if anything will come of it but let's see what happens.

 

 

Those are the sanctions that Joe and his minions all told us were meant to deter Putin, until they weren’t.

[Dashinka 24,479]

So Zelenskyy used a member of the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion in his address to the Greek Parliament.  It did not go over too well.

 

Main opposition SYRIZA-Progressive Alliance leader Alexis Tsipras strongly criticized the fact that a member of Ukraine’s Azov Battalion has been permitted to address the Greek parliament.

 

“Solidarity with the Ukrainian people is a given. But nazis cannot be allowed to speak in parliament,” Tsipras said in a message on social media.

 

“The speech was a provocation,” Tsipras emphasized, adding that the Greek Prime Minister “bears full responsibility” for this day of “historic shame.”

 

https://greekreporter.com/2022/04/07/greek-azov-fighter-zelensky-speech-greek-parliament/