Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[TBoneTX 45,159]

1 hour ago, laylalex said:

Last I checked we were pro-Denmark and Sweden

I'm pro-Greta Thunberg.  "How DEHHHHHH you!"

 

[Dashinka 24,448]

14 hours ago, laylalex said:

No, AOC has said she does not support Putin. 

 

Bernie Sanders also does not support Putin:

https://vermontbiz.com/news/2022/february/24/sanders-statement-russian-invasion-ukraine

 

So basically you don't believe what they say, and assume that they are saying it's the US's fault because... ? A group they are members of said this? It's a dumb statement, I don't disagree with that. But it is the statement of an individual that -- to me -- counts more. Unless they are saying "I endorse the DSA on this" I am going with their actual words.

Bernie does need to watch out, sometimes his acolytes take his words and do some pretty harmful actions.  In reality, the expansion of NATO is the cause of all this and when in 2008 it was suggested that The Ukraine and Georgia were on track to join NATO the Russians had had enough (remember the other expansions that occurred with no actions).  Georgia was taken over almost immediately, and of course we know what happened in Crimea and the Donbas regions (did any think the Russians were going to simply let the Ukrainians hand over the naval base in Sevastopol to NATO?).  Ever since the dissolution of the USSR, the US and Europe have made great political errors.  Why was NATO maintained?  Why was NATO expanded?  Why wasn't Russia invited to join NATO?  Why weren't we trying to set up a relationship with Russia to potentially counter China's growing influence? 

 

I know, back then in 1991 no one really saw China as a major threat, but that of course is not the case, and it should have been evident even back then that they were heading in that direction.  Of course, we here in the US are governed by a bunch of elite idiots who were Model UN participants and they must have a bogey man.  Putin is an autocrat, and his actions are reprehensible, but the US and particularly Europe are just as bad.  I know Trump was a terrible President, and a Russian stooge according to the Left, but he was right, NATO should have been dissolved, but when he said that, the usual media types came to NATO's defense.

 

What is happening today is very sad, sad to the Ukrainians, sad for the Russians that will feel the brunt of the sanctions the "good guys" have imposed, and sad for us here because we have such inept leadership in our elected leadership as well as in our bureaucrats.

 

 

[Mike E 11,739]

I’m happy to see world ratchet up sanctions against Russia.  Russia out of the FIFA, IIHf, great.  Netflix no longer streaming Russian content. Wonderful.  Disney not releasing movies in Russian cinemas.  Wonderful. RT kicked off cable TV, sure what ever trips your trigger.  Weapons sent to Ukraine. Fabulous.  Cutting Russian airliners out of airspace, cool (though it isn’t actually happening as Aeroflot flies over Canada).  
 

But let’s get real: if it were China invading an unaligned Asian country, none of this  would happen. 
 

Russia has the same GDP as Spain. It’s an easy feel good target. Costs nothing to cut Russia off.  But for 6000 nuclear warheads, Russia is irrelevant.  
 

So another reason why are we rushing to help Ukraine: because our sacrifices to do so are minor. 
 

When the time comes, I doubt we will rush to help Taiwan. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Mike E

[millefleur 5,046]

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Ever since the dissolution of the USSR, the US and Europe have made great political errors. 

This.

 

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Why wasn't Russia invited to join NATO?  Why weren't we trying to set up a relationship with Russia to potentially counter China's growing influence? 

Good question. Many politician science experts have been pondering it for years. The US lied to Russia/the USSR and said they would never extend NATO one inch to the East, as the USSR disbanded and Warsaw Pact fell. The US broke the promise, NATO expanded eastward, angered Russia who felt betrayed and continued to double down by instigating color revolutions in the post-USSR space (including the so-called Orange Revolution in 2005) all along Russia's border and egging on other bordering countries to join NATO. The Maidan protests in 2014 where another one of these coups that the US backed (we have proof, there's leaked audio of Victoria Nuland from the state department talking about which leader the US should pick and then OK'ing with Biden, yes, who was involved in this even back then) and this lead to Russia's annexation of Crimea and then the civil war in the Donbass broke out.  The tensions over Ukraine have been stoking for decades, ever since the USSR broke up, a lot of it has to do with Ukraine's borders which encapsulate a poorly divided country that got balkanized out of a greater country (the USSR). These are just facts, anyone who doesn't want to study the history well, they can be ignorant and choose to believe whatever then.

 

Also, when NATO bombed Yugoslavia, that was basically a blue screen of death moment for Boris Yeltsin. He had been lead to believe the US was on his side and cared about Russia and Russia's say in world affairs. After Bill Clinton being super chummy with Yeltsin, Clinton and his cabinet shutting out Yeltsin from having a say in what was historically Russia's sphere of influence was what lead to Putin. Putin was hand selected by Yeltsin to be his successor in 1999. And fast forward over all this crash course history I just typed out here and here we are today.

Edited March 1, 2022 by millefleur

[Neonred 3,553]

As I have said before, poke the bear enough times and the bear eventually bites back.

[Dashinka 24,448]

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

I’m happy to see world ratchet up sanctions against Russia.  Russia out of the FIFA, IIHf, great.  Netflix no longer streaming Russian content. Wonderful.  Disney not releasing movies in Russian cinemas.  Wonderful. RT kicked off cable TV, sure what ever trips your trigger.  Weapons sent to Ukraine. Fabulous.  Cutting Russian airliners out of airspace, cool (though it isn’t actually happening as Aeroflot flies over Canada).  
 

But let’s get real: if it were China invading an unaligned Asian country, none of this  would happen. 
 

Russia has the same GDP as Spain. It’s an easy feel good target. Costs nothing to cut Russia off.  But for 6000 nuclear warheads, Russia is irrelevant.  
 

So another reason why are we rushing to help Ukraine: because our sacrifices to do so are minor. 
 

When the time comes, I doubt we will rush to help Taiwan. 

I loved this statement from Disney.  No humanitarian crisis in China? 

 

"Given the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine and the tragic humanitarian crisis, we are pausing the release of theatrical films in Russia, including the upcoming 'Turning Red' from Pixar," a spokesperson for The Walt Disney Company said in a statement Monday. 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/disney-halts-movie-releases-in-russia-after-ukraine-invasion/ar-AAUrowf

[millefleur 5,046]

35 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I loved this statement from Disney.  No humanitarian crisis in China? 

Mask off moment for Disney that they only care when it's Europeans dying and suffering I guess.

[Dashinka 24,448]

This is very good and explains a lot of the longer term history of what is going on here.  Again, this is not to excuse anything being done by Putin, but it does help to explain the poor moves by the US and Europe over the past 30 years leading up to this.

 

https://youtu.be/Nbj1AR_aAcE

[Boiler 45,411]

22 minutes ago, millefleur said:

Mask off moment for Disney that they only care when it's Europeans dying and suffering I guess.

They make a lot of money in China see also NBA

[Dashinka 24,448]

26 minutes ago, millefleur said:

Mask off moment for Disney that they only care when it's Europeans dying and suffering I guess.

Plus Disney needs the Uyghur slaves in China to produce their overpriced products.

[Mike E 11,739]

4 hours ago, millefleur said:

  After Bill Clinton being super chummy with Yeltsin, Clinton and his cabinet shutting out Yeltsin from having a say in what was historically Russia's sphere of influence was what lead to Putin. Putin was hand selected by Yeltsin to be his successor in 1999. And fast forward over all this crash course history I just typed out here and here we are today.

Yes this was cusp moment.  
 

Bush I, despite his faults, believed in more limited military adventurism than any of his predecessors.  
 

I remember in the 1992 debates that the Yugoslavian civil war came up, and Bush I made it clear he would not involve the USA in it. Whereas Clinton insisted “we can do more”.  I believe Bush I fully understood that this would upset Russia and bring back the Cold War but he was the least articulate president since the age of recorded sound.  If Bush I wins a second term, there is no Putin, no second Cold War, no Bush II hence no invasion of Iraq, and no ISIS.  And perhaps a more effective response to 9/11 (made inevitable by the first Iraq war).  

 

But “the economy” and the people voted for Bubba.  Elections have long term consequences.  
 

But the bottom line is USA military  adventures outside the Americas rarely go well. 

[Boiler 45,411]

There is a London radio station I wake up to and there is a fair bit to call in especially now

 

The main topic seemed to be imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine, how can people be so clueless 

[Mike E 11,739]

35 minutes ago, Boiler said:

There is a London radio station I wake up to and there is a fair bit to call in especially now

 

The main topic seemed to be imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine, how can people be so clueless 

I’ve read on hotair.com that Europe has reneged on  the offers of fighter jets too.  The original offers seemed equally clueless to me.  

[millefleur 5,046]

3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Yes this was cusp moment.  

It's especially more pointed when Russia and Serbia have been extremely close allies for centuries (let's not forget that Russia was the first to mobilize in WW1 in order to protect Serbia), so the Yugoslav bombing was like an attack on a brother, it was something Russia never, ever forgot....meanwhile, here in the US it was just a headline/news story for some months and then quickly faded out of existence for most Americans. I have to admit my own ignorance, that prior to living in Russia and talking with Russians, I had completely forgotten about this myself. Probably a lot of Americans out there don't even know about it or remember that it even happened. What seems like distant history to us is very much alive for other countries.

 

7 minutes ago, Boiler said:

The main topic seemed to be imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine, how can people be so clueless 

I have to say if the choice is between "let's start WW3 or not" regardless of which country will end up the loser, I'm pretty sure most people on Earth will go the "let's avoid WW3" route, no matter what country is at risk. Let's hope that at least this bare minimum level of sanity will remain during this war. I also think people don't understand what a "no fly zone" is...I think they suspect that if some country declares a "no fly zone" against another that it means the other side will just magically stop flying their planes over the territory, like some kind of mutual agreement. They don't realize it means "shoot down any enemy plane that enters into this airspace" or is basically akin to declaring war on the other side.

[Mike E 11,739]

Well yeah … Serbia was a country inside Yugoslavia.  Clinton was so clueless