Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[Mike E 11,741]

6 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Btw, I did not say Russia's natural resources were a justification for the invasion.  I was referring to those as a way Russia can weather any financial storm like they are doing now

A similar argument could be made about Venezuela. Instead  oil production has cratered. Even though Russia is there to supposedly fix things.
 

 It turns out that angering the only super power when one has crude oil that is difficult to refine is not a winning strategy.
 

It remains to be seen if Russia can continue in the long run to extract its resources without access to Western technology. 
 

I do not see the CIA allowing Russia to prevail in Ukraine. Once everyone realizes that, we can get to a better place.

[TBoneTX 45,603]

2 hours ago, Mike E said:

I see nothing in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany that says NATO could not expand. 

I read (not recently) that there was an agreement about Ukraine between the U.S. and Russia around 1990 or thereafter that Russia felt was broken, and it caused hard feelings.  I would have to search to find it.  If someone finds it first and I'm incorrect, I'll accept that.

[Mike E 11,741]

Some people allege that verbal assurances were made to the USSR and Russia during German reunification talks.

 

If so, Russians got out foxed.
 

Like the way they out foxed the U.S. when after WW2 they did not retreat to USSR.
 

When you embarrass the OSS/CIA you pay the ultimate price.

 

The CIA will not stop until Russia is gone. It took the most of the Warsaw pact countries, it took most of Yugoslavia,  it took the Baltics (former USSR), and it is taking Ukraine. 

 

[TBoneTX 45,603]

Zelensky Says Women Who Sign Up To Fight Russia Will Receive A Free Pumpkin Spice Latte

 

[...] "These women will be unable to resist," Zelensky said when announcing the offer.  "Our military has been ravaged and is in dire need of reinforcements.  We have run through all of our able-bodied men and must now turn to the strong, proud Ukrainian women.  Any reluctance to fight against the Russians will easily be overcome by the power of the most potent substance in a woman's life — pumpkin spice."  [...]

 

https://babylonbee.com/news/zelensky-says-women-who-sign-up-to-fight-will-receive-a-free-pumpkin-spice-latte

[Dashinka 24,639]

11 hours ago, Mike E said:

I see nothing in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany that says NATO could not expand. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO–Russia_relations says 

“The NATO-Russia Council (NRC) was created on 28 May 2002 during the 2002 NATO Summit in Rome”

By that date NATO had previously enlarged to include  Hungary, Poland, and the Czech Republic. 

So if Russia still had its nose out of joint over NATO expansion into former Warsaw countries, signing up for the NRC surely did not indicate that. 
 

The current Russia / Ukraine war had its seeds in EU and Ukraine agreeing to free trade treaty which no doubt would have led to Ukraine joining the EU. Instead government of Ukraine reneged and its people protested, toppling government in favor of a pro EU regime. Russia then took Crimea, shot down a passenger jet, and invaded the rest of Ukraine.

 

Thus  Russia’s attempt to conquer Ukraine has less to do with Ukraine possibly being in NATO and more to do with Russia fearing the reduced economic influence it would have on Ukraine.
 

As a member of the EU, Ukraine was on a path to a GDP that would eclipse Russia. This embarrassment would ultimately force Putin from power.  
 

The State Department has surely mishandled Russian relations, and the U.S. and NATO invasion of Yugoslavia gave Russia  an excuse to have its feelings hurt. But Stalin tried repeatedly to assassinate Tito, so forgive me if I am not so moved by Russia’s concern over NATO aggression toward a Slavic country. 
 

If Yeltsin wasn’t a drunk, Russia might have turned out differently. 

Ifs and Buts, and young people get killed.  I suppose that is fine for the neocons here in America.  I never said there was nothing set in stone that NATO could not expand, but leaving NATO in place after the fall of the USSR was clearly a belligerent act by the West. 

 

The US/West has severely mishandled just about everything they touched since WWII, but what else is new considering the state of the government here in the US, and that of Europe.

 

Whatever, it is all politics, so what if we have to sacrifice the hoi polloi so some powerful politicians and their neocon allies get theirs.

 

Btw, was the EU planning on lowering its corruption standards to allow Ukraine to join, or were they just floating the idea so the EU could exploit Ukraine?

Edited September 6, 2023 by Dashinka

[Dashinka 24,639]

12 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Remember Pakistan and Bangladesh, and, most recently, Sudan and South Sudan.

A whole lot of previous European colonies (mostly in Africa) have illogical borders from cultural and religious standpoints.

 

11 hours ago, Boiler said:

India and China

 

Even Japan and Russia

 

South America

 

North America

 

And so it goes on

The one constant is change.  Who is to say the borders drawn in the 1990's were the best.

[Dashinka 24,639]

11 hours ago, Mike E said:

A similar argument could be made about Venezuela. Instead  oil production has cratered. Even though Russia is there to supposedly fix things.
 

 It turns out that angering the only super power when one has crude oil that is difficult to refine is not a winning strategy.
 

It remains to be seen if Russia can continue in the long run to extract its resources without access to Western technology. 
 

I do not see the CIA allowing Russia to prevail in Ukraine. Once everyone realizes that, we can get to a better place.

Not really sure Venezuela Is the best comparison.  As already stated, the CIA/US does not have the best track record in long term political manipulations.

 

I already posted an article showing that Russian oil, and other Russian natural resources are still being purchased by the West, and I am sure China has stolen enough Western technology to offset anything lost by the companies in the West toeing the Biden line.

[Dashinka 24,639]

9 hours ago, Mike E said:

Some people allege that verbal assurances were made to the USSR and Russia during German reunification talks.

 

If so, Russians got out foxed.
 

Like the way they out foxed the U.S. when after WW2 they did not retreat to USSR.
 

When you embarrass the OSS/CIA you pay the ultimate price.

 

The CIA will not stop until Russia is gone. It took the most of the Warsaw pact countries, it took most of Yugoslavia,  it took the Baltics (former USSR), and it is taking Ukraine. 

 

Yes, the Neocons in the CIA need their bogeyman don't they.  Heck, the CIA cannot get rid of the DPRK, what makes you think they will get rid of Russia without getting the Chinese on their side?

[Pooky 3,821]

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Btw, was the EU planning on lowering its corruption standards …

The EU has standards? 🙄

[Dashinka 24,639]

4 minutes ago, Pooky said:

The EU has standards? 🙄

I know, I laughed at that one too!    However, with Ukraine, I expect it is more of an exploitation play as the EU stifles its own farming practices, they will need to get food from somewhere.

[Boiler 45,735]

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

 

The one constant is change.  Who is to say the borders drawn in the 1990's were the best.

 

Just look at the US Canada and US Mexico borders, that is more like 200 years ago. Now if the Countries concerned are happy to adjust that is one thing, otherwise it gets shall we say messy.

[TBoneTX 45,603]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

US Canada

Some little islands off Washington state are under dispute to this day, to my knowledge.

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

US Mexico border

None now.

[Boiler 45,735]

Time to invade Canada? Again?

 

The Greater Mexico, Reconquista ("reconquest") is a term to describe an irredentist vision by different individuals, groups, and/or nations that the Southwestern United States should be politically or culturally returned to Mexico. Such opinions are often formed on the basis that those territories were claimed by Spain for centuries and then by Mexico from 1821 until they were ceded to the United States during the Texas Annexation (1845) and the Mexican Cession (1848) because of the Mexican–American War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)

 

[TBoneTX 45,603]

3 minutes ago, Boiler said:

the Southwestern United States should be politically or culturally returned to Mexico

Effectively already so.

[Dashinka 24,639]

4 hours ago, Boiler said:

Time to invade Canada? Again?

 

The Greater Mexico, Reconquista ("reconquest") is a term to describe an irredentist vision by different individuals, groups, and/or nations that the Southwestern United States should be politically or culturally returned to Mexico. Such opinions are often formed on the basis that those territories were claimed by Spain for centuries and then by Mexico from 1821 until they were ceded to the United States during the Texas Annexation (1845) and the Mexican Cession (1848) because of the Mexican–American War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)

 

Saw the term irredentist, and it reminded me of this.